Ham

That one HARDLY went over my head. Even giving it the mildest interpretation possible- "anybody who is anybody in the Christian world- or at least "mature" enough- should realize that this Almighty "ministry" is the source of all life, and good- and should be mature enough to recognize it and be willing to lick our boots and other parts as we see fit". That is the mild interpretation. My answer- "Hogwash".

Holy cow- this "you owe me" crap went away with the Mosaic priesthood. Funny, you don't read about anybody "standing in da gap" in the vaunted epistles- except Jesus Christ. No wonder stupid vey "leadership" get so mad at people that have problems- they just cannot perform the job description they have taken upon themselves. Oh well, I guess we're just supposed to keep paying, again, and again, and again. Sad. Really sad. Good grief..

"We should come to the realization that we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry". I guess I am just not "mature" enough. Have to go back and see if I can "get it". Just another second-rate non-believing non-member..heh heh. Honestly- I DO NOT- never did, never will- owe my life to any stinking second rate cult type blood-sucking "ministry". Never. Call me immature, call me stupid- call me deluded- anything you want- no friggin way. Even a righteous, "God fearing" organization- I owe them NOTHING but to love- and even then, FREELY, without compulsion. I vividly remember the fellow that shared Romans 10:9 with me. I do not OWE my life to him, either. Thankful he shared though. How can you sell, or charge for something that is obviously FREE? Holy smokes- the new birth- eternal life- saved- "call it what you will"- is FREE. How DARE some bastard claim that you owe your life to him/his organization for it? Good grief- it is not even in YOUR power to give it away. The only thing you can do is show somebody else where to get it. I remember enough stuff- like God is the one who is in the business of "giving". Cripe, even HEALING is a "gift". So- "here's the new birth, now you can operate manifestations- now you owe me". I think not. Believe that, and I have a half a dozen bridges that you could pay me to have the "priviledge" to drive over. "But, but, you don't own the bridge, nobody else has to pay..." I suppose somebody could come up with a verse somewhere- ah, yes, Philemon. "neither do I tell thee that thou owest me your very soul besides.." Was he "strong-arming" Philemon to accept Onesimus back? I don't buy that explanation. Paul exhorted FOR LOVES sake. Not manipulation, not to see what kind of dough he could get out of the guy. Not to see how many more "babes" he could "work over" in the motorcoach. More of a nice tender exhortation, "Before you axe the guy, just remember what God did for you for a moment". Who do you owe your life too? 1. God almighty. He is the author of life. 2. Jesus Christ- he is the one who performed the redemption, paid the price. "Owing" yourself to anybody else is pure, unadulterated evil. Slavery, not too mention idolatry. They do not supply your need. And its the same stupid stuff churches have been doing for years- "if it wasn't for US, you'd be in a heap of dang". Oh well, I guess God Almighty is no bigger than a blood-sucking organization. Unbelievable- I'm not buying it, at least any more.

I hope you get some presents. If you don't, make sure to buy some, you sure deserve them!

"and fellowship ministry..." By THEIR definition, fellowship is to share FULLY. While this perhaps, may have been true once, it is now no longer. They claim to "share fully" with their followers, supposedly everything from peas to apple butter, according to their public spokesman. But how is it I did not even hear a quarter of the real story until years out of that mess? Not a peep about the real goings on. I guess fellowship means you may share your finances and support fully with them. They will fully share their latest version of shinola with you.

Yep.. that IS the problem! At least for some of us. You can debate, research, do all the mathematical accuracy and scientific precision stuff to it and still not convince people that have somehow broken out of the loop, or have gotten off the running wheel for that matter. I've seen hamsters run the wheels for hours on end, day and night- still did not convince me that that was the right thing for me to do in life.

Hey, still waiting here, heh heh.

I will even accept PT's from redneck types, and partially cultured ones too. I think all of you are great..

Only thing I can say is.. any of you ladies want to private topic me, the Lord have mercy on you! I'm just one worn out kinda hippy type, heh heh. At least you know what you're getting!

I dunno. I have met a few women that I am convinced were from Mars.

Understatement of the year. Yes, I respected him. Personally, I had no reason not to. I had no idea of what he "had up his sleeve". Now to find out of his "activities" in the motor coach, the virtual and actual rape of MY sisters in the Lord- I feel, well, betrayed. Add to this the activities of good old Loy Martindale. While I was being berated over forgetting some kind of arcane protocol, or otherwise SMALL fault, good ole Loy was happily humping anything female at headquarters he could get his hands on, all with the full knowledge and consent of those who are now in power. It astounds me that anybody wishes to fellowship with them. Do I trust them any more? I'll let you answer that question. I've heard some arguments that "well, he may have been a rotten guy, but he sure was good with the bible". I think ninety-eight percent right on is a rather LARGE over-estimate. A person can't wallow in as much sin as these two guys did and not end up with some real yuck sticking to you on the inside. Proverbs says something to the effect of the adulterer being "unstable in ALL his ways". I wouldn't believe that the sun rises every morning on these guys words alone. Reminds me of the prostitute in proverbs- just does what she wants, wipes her mouth, and says, "well, nothing really happened". "Well, I can still teach the bible.. that oughta fix everything.." All things, at least for me, have to be independantly verified. As far a PFAL is concerned, I have spent enough time, worked it over enough to my satisfaction to know what I think works and want to keep, and have already thrown out what looks like hooey. Both Wierwille AND Martindale were sexual predators. I would like to see it documented in the word where this is the right thing to "conceal". And those in charge just kept letting an army of ladies keep right marching in the ole motorcoach, suspecting nothing until too late. All who were aware of it were duty bound to cry "rape" as loud as they could. The few that did got their walking orders. Those that kept their mouths shut kept their jobs. Sadly,I never knew about this stuff. Would have saved me lots of time- but that "the ministry" if you can call it that- "be not blamed"- they just learned to live with evil. As far as being energized- seems the worse ole Craig got, the less and less he got "energized". Pretty soon, ministry failures couldn't be HIS problem. Obviously, it was THE PEOPLE! Perhaps he had a genuine ministry at one time, I don't know. Sure forfeited it for a few pleasures. I guess the real point is, you really can't separate the man, his character, and the message. All three must be known to really give a valid assessment. That is what you are finding here- I think folks are questioning EVERYTHING- and rightfully so. Personally, I think the part that was good was "lifted" from other men's ministries, men who had character that was beyond reproach. Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon, the list goes on and on.

Circular logic only gets you dizzy..

Don't you see- they don't have to divulge anything.. YOU are not even qualified to handle money, at least in their eyes, to begin with.

But back to PFAL- if it is equal to "the Word"- you gotta eat it all. "we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us the word". Any yes, that one just happened to be printed in "the sacred text". Don't like the taste of that? Maybe you could use lots and lots of ketchup. MY bible says the lord paid for me, not some blood sucking "ministry".

Well.. there is not a whole lot that I find objectionable in the intermediate class, but at least to me, what I would consider the real "leaven" to mess up the whole lump came in one little statement: "we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us da verd, blah blah blah..". Pure friggin evil. Sure, there was good in the class, and we became the best tonguers and interpreters of tonguers this side of the mississippi. But look at the cost. And like all the other good wayfers, I just sat there and listened to that statement without raising the slightest objection. "Hey, I thought that only the Lord owned me". After all, he is the one that paid the price. This was the leaven that really messed up the lump. By the time you were in the advanced class, you were CONVINCED of it. You owed your life to the ministry. Thank God I did not go corpse.

As far as the niceness concept.. I think a lot of it was missing in TWI, at least as I define it. Sure, I disagree with other people almost every day of the week. I just don't hate them any more. In TWI, it was easier to label someone as deluded or possessed if they dared to disagree. Too easy. Honestly, it took me some time to come to the realization that if somebody believed something different, or voiced a different opinion, that it was not necessarily of da debil. Really- it took some time away from Da Vey for a lot of the stupidity to wear off. I have found that I can disagree with most people on almost any subject and still be friends. Heck, even Mike- can't hate him. The old TWI "just let da debil have em" - don't even consider that, any more. Poetry works.. heh heh.

I don't consider it an entire waste either. The problem was just what it BECAME, or what it was promoted as. With PFAL vaunted to the status of "godhood"- and I'm thinking more of the whole series- if you didn't get results- if you couldn't sense every darn spurt this side of the mississippi, or if you were chronically sick for ANY reason, woe unto you. It surely can't be the doctrine's fault. Even though results or experiences were not guaranteed, they were EXPECTED. That's the whole problem with this whole "PFAL is God-breathed, and perfect" concept. No results? The problem MUST lie with you. And if the leadership can't figure out the problem- you must be possessed or something. I think it did not turn out to be the magical formula that guaranteed success that it was touted to be- it just did not live up to it's reputation. But it did answer about eighty five percent of any question I ever did have about the bible. And the few decent keys to help me just plain read it were OK. A nice bible class that I got some truth out of would be a good assessment. Some truth- that I paid, and paid, and paid for again and again. There was a time when we would answer questions, or at least try to get the answers for unanswered questions. At times, in the foundational class, I saw the head honcho go over twenty or more questions, without berating the asker. I observed that to become less and less of an occurence. Seemed at my advanced class, my impression was that people were afraid to ask questions. At least one I know of was sent home for doing so- she had some objection to the "myth of the six million" concept. Twig times consisted of mainly rehashing the last session or two. No real questions were asked, only review to see if you're really "getting it". Just to make sure you could spout out all of the definitions right, retemorize more verses- it was very well "programmed".

Yep- keep at it- for me, the real bad urges only lasted about thirty seconds at a time. Had to quit coffee for a while. The morning coffee screamed for it's cigarette companion.

But considering the boob of the subject here- considering it's prior history, you could use it for self-defense.

I quit eighteen years ago.. no regrets about quitting.

Well, I hope it's the right thing to say: congratulations!

You could have had some real fun with that accent. After speaking in tongues- "to be, or not to be, that is da question..."

Greetings, likewise. I don't critique PFAL. Took it about sixty too many times. Read the materials for hours on end. Years and years- don't hate, don't agree with it all, got some good out of it, but I just don't want any more. I'm not an "unbeliever"- still read the bible and "fellowship with believers"- just nice to be able to do so without Doc Vic's accent echoing in my head..

I dunno about all of this. It is kind of easy to make this kind of assessment sitting back in your easy chair in the good old U.S.A. What about Christians in other parts of the world, our brothers and sisters- beaten, impoverished, kept illiterate- and worse? Is this all their fault because they somehow lack the power, or don't have "the magic keys"? I don't think so. Are they somehow less spiritual in God's eyes? Remember- they are BRETHREN, trying to do the best they can in the circumstances that they find themselves in. Apparently, prosperity, as it has been defined- or alluded to, does not carry the guarantee of being filthy rich, or even being treated "nicely". The only thing that differs between us and them is CIRCUMSTANCES. Will I have to die for my beliefs? Probably not- but some of them- very likely. They are more than conquerers- the circumstances do not determine their beliefs or actions. I wonder who really is richer.

That's the main reason I left, or more properly, refused to jump through any more hoops or conditions in order to be involved. No power left there. Everything seemed so carnal to me- the forever never ending scheduling, cleaning, going here, going there- meetings and more meetings- all with no profit. More and more "attention to details". No "ministering". The larger meetings seemed artificial to me- like a stupid religious infomercial. Our function turned from sharing and/or caring to that of a carnival barker. My opinion- people more and more had to be conned into taking the classes, and they did not stick around da ministry after (or even if) they finished it. And it got worse after I was gone. More scheduling, including approval from your overseers- more fleshly ordinances. No power or spirit anymore- gotta do something I guess. A lot of the corps were sincere before- really wanted to help. They evolved into meddlers and troublers. Obviously, since you were not successfull in analyzing every fleshly detail in life, they were the answer.. oh well. Toward the end of it all, I was not really impressed with Loy's "handling" of scripture. His teachings and material seemed to reek of legalism- at least to me. The rise and expansion book- way too much- too many details, too much stuff to "do" and not "believe". "Lets see, am I doing this, and that, and that..." Turned from grace and love into law. No wonder we couldn't minister any more.