Ham

Holy cow- makes me think God doesn't have enough ministries to pass around, so he has to put them out on loan.. don't return them on time- the overdue fines are horrific..

Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous. What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance? This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord". No ministries of miracles and healing where you live? If PFAL is right, you can rise up and do it. Lets see it happen. Let's see YOU do it. Need to walk on water? Let's see YOU do it first. I'm not trying to be "mean"- I really care. At first I thought this stuff was laughable- now I realize that you REALLY believe it. Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it. In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but- considering the size of this thing, most states would require some kind of turning indicator if you just happen to be walking down the street..

The PFAL thing got me thinking of this. I think a lot of you guys "had it" so to speak, and got something out of it. So many other Peter and Paul wannabes never got it, never had it to begin with. To bad they tossed out all of the Peter and Paul types.

"Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual." Sounds all too familiar. Kind of like, "now, you gotta be nice. Forget about the rape, the stealing, the etc. , etc. and give the poor guy another chance". There may be a different extreme- constantly reminding folks of all the little piddly mistakes, trying to put someone down in order to climb over them, etc. That's kind of devilish. But on the other hand.. I would be an unfaithful watchman to allow somebody to unknowingly walk blindly into "the lions den" without warning. Nothing has changed there, but only for the worse since I left. Things like: leadership telling their flock, or at least some, the most appropriate thing would be to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one would hear and beat the he** out of him. Telling the wife to divorce her husband because he was "possessed" (i.e., did not agree fully with the ministry doctrine). Talk about words that cut, words that kill. Words that stir up strife. Between husband and wife, even whole families. Best friends. Those kind of words must be marked and remembered, and repeated. "Mad dog is loose, watch out". Maybe you haven't seen it. It took Martindale quite a few years to get that kind of degredation to be readily apparent in my area. Before, they only thought these kind of suggestions. Shortly before I left, these were often COMMANDMENTS. I heard enough to straighten out my hair. Shortcomings are one thing- I have enough to fill a dumpster. Downright pure sin and evil on the other hand- deserves a little scrutiny.

Well.. good idea. Only thing, it'd either scare the kid to death or give it some real unreasonable expectations in life..

Well, I thought that it's March, almost April, almost spring, and time for twue wove.

Wooo hooo, heh heh.

Another thought- "though you may not have the MINISTRY of a prophet, you can believe to carry out the FUNCTION of a prophet" Pure, absolute, balderdash. Nothing less. Only God almighty can energize the ministry or function of a prophet. But somehow, with the magic of believing or some such nonsense, and da accuracy of PFAL you yourself can somehow pull it off. All I can say is, go ahead, try it. Pretend you've "got it". I know at least one guy that walked in the funeral parlor and tried. The dang corpse just wouldn't cooperate properly, you know.. Still not convinced? Go ahead- try it. I think I'll wait to see what it does to you before I try it. No results? I wouldn't blame God.

Raf, I actually take that as a compliment.. at least finally there is one horde I can "belong" to, heh heh.. As to P.F.A.L.- what kind of "results" did I see from it? What I observed: not always- but normally- folks were given the apparent "magic keys" to spiritual success. Fine and wonderful- what did that produce? An ARMY of committed-to-the-accuracy-of-the-word zealots (myself included, at times) who were expertly groomed and taught how to PRETEND they had revelation. Revelation about everything. Why your job stunk. Why you were sick. Why your pet died. Why you should go in the corps, that you should go WOW, or increase the amount you were giving. Forget that they were a young, snot nose, wet behind the ears but somehow barely stayed awake during parts of the advanced class. But they were GRADS! And if you were a grad, you had the stamp of approval. Of course things got much, much worse. Corpse telling people to beat the he** out of their kid. Telling them that their spouse was possessed. Telling them... on and on. Pretending they had the gift of healing and telling the victim to throw away their medicine. Yeah, I know doc vic's objection to this- "I'd make sure I really had revelation"- well, that's what they thought. Oh well, mistakes can be buried. And it HAS happened. Pretending to have a ministry. Yes, pretending- look at old Loy. Never had one. If he did, he threw it away long ago, in the beginning. There are exceptions, but that is the legacy of PFAL. I think the demand of proof of claims not to be at all vulgar or profane, especially in light of the junk most of us have gone through. If they hold all the cards, they should joyfully play them. Prophets are CALLED, not man or self-MADE. Never. Quit stinkin pretending you're something you're not. PFAL is not God. You cannot believe hard enough to be made a prophet, or apostle, or etc.. no amount of work, no amount of effort- all you'll get is a hernia, or embarassed or worse. You can't study hard enough either. Won't happen. Sit back, relax, say, "It's OK, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a MOG.. things will be OK anyway, the sun will still rise tomorrow". Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ really oughta be enough. What more could you want?

Hope it is going OK.. hey, just keep up the good work. I'll keep all of those rascals in doctrinal busy for you, heh heh.

Oh yeah.. sure remember that! I remember folks "miraculously" finding extra cash in their checking accounts. They wrote out some for cash, paid for the class, and low and behold, several checks happened to be just a little late coming in. Must've been da adversary, stealing that "increase" out of their bank accounts.. Happened more than once, at least that I witnessed. But they got da class! I wonder just what we were thinking..

Cripe- whether or not you get results from it does not affect my spirituality. Personally, I don't need to see the dead walk to be convinced that there is a God, or that we've been redeemed by His son, for that matter. But really, what is all of this "mastering of da class" doing for you? Just some nebulous, "well, I'm just so blessed today.." "I can finally see, I am blessed" or is it really tangible? Do you see real miracles, aside the conventional one when you happen to be able to pull up in your favorite parking spot? You may not read my intent- I am not mad, angry, etc.- just would like to know. What good has it, or is it doing? What did PFAL do for me? I learned more in twig- at least more that was really useful. How to pray, what kind of things God might have a voice in about what to pray for- a few other things. With that class, I found myself more and more trying to do the Lord's job. Tried figuring out every detail before taking a single step. Checking every stinking little key trying to determine if it was really the Lord or not. "God expects you to know everything you can know by your five senses". Revelation turned into sense-knowledge analysis. Just doing more and more of God's job. Trying to figure out if it was Word of Knowledge, or Word of Wisdom- or was it something else.. forever analyzing it to death. Ever wonder why he put all that stuff about the manifestations in only three (technically speaking at least) chapters in the bible, and short ones at that? Maybe it's not such the big deal it's cracked up to be. Maybe it's just not as hard as you think. Heck, Samuel's "advanced class" lasted only about a verse and a half. I find it interesting that the vast majority of the instructions in Corinthians regards PROPHECY- i.e., telling people what to do. Boiled down from all of the exhortation/comfort/forthtelling/foretelling definitions, that really is what it comes down to. What about all of those keys- sixteen plus. "God expects you to know what you can know by your five senses" then the heavy revy can kick in, supposedly. Ever think that your sense knowledge reliance and analysis just might be WRONG? Sure was for me, more than once. What in the world would God expect you to know THAT for? My God is a heck of a lot bigger, and far more generous. Labeling revelation given about something you already "know" being phenomenal is ridiculous. What you "know" is usually wrong. Now, through the "help" of your "overseer", you can be a prevailing, schedule the life of the devil out of your daily routine believer. That would have driven me nuts, even then. More work, work work work. No more, at least for me.

A long time ago, I promised myself I'd never get involved in one of the nice civilized brawls.. what hoppened? - heh heh. I think this one must of hit me just right..

HCW- I had similar experiences when I was a WOW. Now, I am just a scruffy looking rascal, but then, well , maybe some of the charisma rubbed off on me. Wouldn't know it now- at least two occasions I turned them down. Looking back, life probably would a heck of a lot worse if I didn't.

There is a big difference between vulgar and honest. Where are the results? If it (PFAL) is what it claims to be, the lack therof speaks volumes. Yes, I pray- and read the bible- and I do get results. Tangible, real, results. Few specific thanks to PFAL- don't owe my whole life to some blood sucking organization. Results, results- first they are guaranteed, and when you sign on the line, magically, they dissappear. "Experiences are not normative, it is the word of God that is truth- etc. etc." I have a right to call anybody on this. If it is so great, show me what it is doing for your life, other that turning you into a bigot or religious zealot. If that's all it does, you won't get me in it- you can have it. Put up or shut up. Either there are results, or there are not.

No wonder they don't want us "old geezers" around anymore. One statement like that out of them, and at least twenty of us would jump them like there's no tomorrow, heh heh.

All this, and his little Martindale too.

I dunno- I would still like to see the "you're my fresh meat because I gave you da verd" statement given some attention. I think that "we gave you the word, now you are OUR property"- unless you can read "you should know that you owe us your life" to be any different- to be either neither Godly, Biblical, or even rational for that matter. Forget hidden meanings, "he meant what he said and he said what he meant". Really- that one is printed right in my intermediate class sylabus. Somehow it missed the Almighty during the editing process, I suppose. What about Psalm 95? Ps 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. If that is not enough: Ps 24:1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. And even if that is not enough- don't like the old testament? How about a nice general (to the church) writing- 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: "Somebody's got to be a liar". Scratch one on the "biblical" support. How about Godly? I Peter5: 2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Not for filthy lucre- I guess all the "back rubs" in the motor coach, along with all the money, motorcycles, bribes, etc. don't qualify. Not to mention, "you owe me, big time". Strike two. How about, rational? Is this a rational request? I may not be qualified to answer, but others surely can. "I helped you out, see, I read you a little bible, and now you owe me everything". Good grief. I would say, bordering on the insane- in my opinion. Here we have not only a factual error- but plain downright meanness, manipulation and evil. My God, the man not only accepted filthy lucre, he DEMANDED it.

Lets see- do I understand what's really going on with this "debate"? "Really, PFAL isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread" "That is not even debatable." "Where are the results then?" "sorry, results not guaranteed. Even if they were guaranteed." Make any sense?

Kinda reminds of an old Star Trek episode- at the prospect of going through the transporter, old doc stood back and said "lets see what it does to your molecules first". Honestly- what has it done? I'm not really writing out of anger on anything, but really- "well, we didn't quite get is JUST right". More working required, more labor- more and more and more and more. One thing I'll say- you won't get me in that thing. Seen a plenty of what it's done to you.

I dunno- call me an unbeliever, a doubter, a skeptic- whatever. But- where is da beef? Where are the results? Why am I not listening to the reports on TV about all of the massive signs, miracles AND wonders produced from "da word as it has not been known since the first century" somewhere in lil old California? Where are they? I thought these kind of things followed the spoken word- you know, the kind of things to convince the unconvincable. Honestly- setting aside obvious doctrinal issues, what about the practical side? If it (PFAL) is the greatest thing since Moses parted the red sea, why am I not hearing about it? There is no media cover-up, no conspiracy to hide. They would be willing to report on this kind of thing in a heartbeat- they've sent out their almost best for far less. They'd send the best of the best of their correspondants to cover the event. Where is it? Where's the party? Heck, I'd even be willing to muster up enough gas money go travel accross the country to see it. Apparently, twenty plus years of mastering "the sacred" writings is not sufficient. Obviously, it is not working. When you figure this out, please don't blame God. Lets see- you're telling me that a snot nosed little temple servant, who did not have the benefit of the grand class is doing a far better job than you? Yes, I am talking about Samuel. Didn't take him twenty years to "master" the method of revelation. Heck, he likely wasn't even twenty years old to begin with. Really- I don't see why you have to make God THAT HARD to deal with. Honestly. Cripe- Samuel did not need a Master's degree in advanced cybernetics to learn to hear the voice of the Lord- no less hundreds of hours of "biblical" instruction. Heck, old Eli taught him IN ONE SENTENCE. Not even sixteen keys to retemorize. Remember- this was before "the fullness" came. But somehow, with Christ in us and all, it's supposed to be so much tougher. Somehow, I still just don't get it. It still sounds like an advanced form of Phariseeism to me- got the whole dadburned thing memorized and it STILL won't work. Must be some secret sin or somethin- that's one explanation I heard thrown at people. Can't be the class- just can't be.

Why, we are supposed to "believe the unbelievable" ya know..

Holy Cow- March already. It was about 5 degrees f here last night. May The Groundhog be with you, always..

But I don't think that was what he was saying. "We are the AUTHORS of truth. You will not get the real truth on God or power anywhere else; don't bother even looking. Since we hold the only "one true word", WE take the place of "the absent Christ". You owe us everything". This, at least I believe, is the real intended meaning. Cripe, no matter what spin you put on it, its nuts.