Ham

Raf, I smoked about two packs a day for over ten years, and quit, cold turkey. It's been about eighteen years for me so far. No regrets of quitting. I go through some real strange things though- sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night from a dream- I dreamed I was smoking- I wake up gagging.. heh heh.

"The Whey of a bun dance and power"- udderly ridiculous.

Looking back- I would say we stayed the correct course. As wonderful as some of the stuff was that I DID get out of PFAL- I think we got deliverance IN SPITE OF a lot of it. There is so much more to God and life outside of the confines of PFAL and TWI. Let's say I went the PFAL way- expect to "cast out" the cancer and expect it to dissappear. Just "believe" big enough. Just read enough Bible verses- make her "renew her mind" to eat the hospital food. My kid wouldn't be here today, really. Sometimes you just can't make God do things in the way you want them done. Work all the keys, do this, do that- crap sometimes STILL happens. Like it or not, the flesh is weak. Despite your best efforts, sometimes people DON'T get deliverance. Who knows why.. but if results are guaranteed, that kind of thinking is gonna kill you- SOMETHING you must have done wrong, some "truth" you must have not "mastered"- can only lead to insanity. We knew of families of good hearted people that lost the fight. Every day, good hearted Christian people lose the fight- even with prayer and believing that God heals, all the way to the end. Anybody that would suggest that somehow they "missed it" or lacked to "master" some arcane doctrine- well, If I wasn't a civilized human being, I'd really get unglued. On the other hand, I wouldn't lay back and accept defeat either. But sometimes crap just plain happens- what are you gonna do then?

Heh heh heh..

Then the schedule came to rounds of Cis-Platin- and that was the worst chemotherapy agent- we declined. We saw what it did to kids- it was literally a “kid-killer”. Talked to the docs- said “well, the other stuff seems to be working- why not use another agent. We see what this stuff does to kids.” The latest biopsy from the bone surgery showed that the cancer was dead, kaput. Even the docs were not convinced that that the further treatments would not cause further cancer. They said no way, this is the program, and we won’t stray from it.. OK- the only other option we have is- we withdraw her from the “program”. “Fine”. At that point we knew it was right- she was healed. It has been over five years, and she has no reoccurrence. None- it’s gone. Anybody wanna hold on to the old “cancer is devil” doctrine still? The “accuracy” of Doc Vics opinion about it? I’ve got some real issues with you. Anybody who could even THINK that this kid, who has three times the believing and goodness than I have can get possessed with a devil spirit from hell, I’ve got some real problems with you. I think one reason we got deliverance- I took out the trash. Really. All the crap like “It must’ve been MY fault- what did I do wrong- just have to figure out where the fear is”- the forever analysis of the situation- how could something this so spiritually “wrong” get under my great all nine all the time radar? One thing I was convinced of- my daughter was not possessed. Sure, we trusted God- but we got out of His way. Let Him do His job. We had ours- it was to love and support our daughter the best we could. Trying to work in all of the little “magic keys” would have only done one thing- gotten in the way. All we could do is pray, read the bible a little, and expect the best. How did we get the deliverance? I believe 1. The power of God. 2. The love from people. Not “the power of PFAL”. Sure, PFAL helped- about five percent or so. It was only a TOOL. Sure, I learned a few things- God is good always, God heals- but with God Almighty working only in the confines of PFAL , I am convinced she would not have made it. I KNOW if we were involved with the ministry she would not have- we would have been berated and yelled at to no end for seeking outside help- help they could and would not have been able to provide. All the “mastering”, all the studying- good grief. Either you’ve got it or you don’t. Cripe- gotta work it over a couple of more hundred times? You’re just not honest “Master” PFAL? Ha. The only way you’re gonna “master” it is to get honest and be willing to throw out the junk that came with it, and keep the good, if you can. What are you afraid of? I’d rather toss some and find out I need to run back and dig it back out before the big truck comes, than to hold on to a bunch of error- and I have done that once or twice.

God had just the right guy there to help us figure out that we needed to give her some real nutritional support, and what to do. By the way, he was Roman Catholic by religion. We ran across literature- even in the hospital of oddest places- talked about the benefits of tomato juice. Every little bit helped. The treatments destroy white blood cells- most receiving the treatment can experience some pretty bad infections. Most of the kids got one or more blood transfusion a week to replace the white cells. Our daughter only needed extra blood once. Our daughter developed a real allergy to hospital food- just the smell of it and she heaved. The staff had to be instructed not to even open the door to the room during meal times. We found that she could eat and actually hold down, of all the oddest things, PIZZA- with the spiciest toppings, even during chemo sessions. Miracle one- we found a way that she could EAT. Thank God we did not have any numbnuts around to recommend that she just “renew her mind” to the hospital food- probably would have killed them, heh heh. But that much pizza was rather costly. The school had a couple of fund-raisers to generate a pizza fund- and it was needed- it was used up by the end of all the hospital visits. We saw miracle after miracle. Even the small ones were big- one of them involved simply getting some ice cream for her. Somehow, just out of nowhere a “guy” shows up asking my now ex, “what can I do for you”? Could have asked for anything I guess- but “she would really like some ice cream”. Took FIVE minutes. Closest store was at least twenty minutes there and back, for what she specifically wanted. And this stuff was not available in the hospital, at least at that time. Miracle? You tell me.

By the way, I consider you folks friends. Even Mike- maybe a little wacky, but a friend nonetheless. So here's more. So… what did we do? We prayed. Then we sought out help. Not from the numbnuts in TWI- no way. I could almost hear the response- “well, you got what you deserved” or some such nonsense. “If you come back and prove yourself, grovel right, we MIGHT be able to do something”. We sought help and support from the community. Anybody that would pray, anybody that believed in healing, anybody that could help. We sought help from the school system. We found a LOT of real good, Christian individuals. Person after person, God put the right person in our path- not one of them was currently from the way, but several were ex-way- and yes, Corps Grads- they were wonderful, and they were real loving sincere people. One of the offshoot ministries actually helped us acquire good transportation to take her to the hospital and back. No condemning, no criticizing. No analysis, trying to figure out where “the fear” that caused it was- there was none anyway. I think the main help and best advice came from some people who we didn’t even know what church or denomination they were with- but they said, "when she goes to the hospital, at least one of you had better be there with her, on guard. If you don’t like what they are doing- threaten, scream, do anything you have to. They can, and often do make mistakes- NEVER leave her alone”. This proved to be most valuable.

I suppose I should take up my own challenge.. Well- I don’t know if this is exactly the right place for this, and it is rather long, but- I do have my daughters permission to tell you guys about this, and it does fit the context of this thread, more or less. Considering only about three people reading this may actually know who we are I feel that I have some anonymity. Anyway- what did PFAL do for me? There were four things that I can positively identify that were really useful after we left the ministry. 1. God is good, always. Somehow, I could never abandon that idea. Fine teaching, but could and have heard it a few hundred other places. 2. God’s will is for a person to be healed. Same thing- heard it even before I went to twig in the early days. 3. Don’t blame God. Pretty common, though some disagree. 4. God answers prayer. 5. Don’t condemn yourself. Sometimes crap just happens- and its not necessarily your fault. That one, I did NOT get from PFAL or the ministry, but thank God I figured it out before this story begins. I think one of the absolute WORST errors in PFAL- “All life is spirit, cancer is life in itself, therefore cancer is caused by a devil spirit”- i.e., being “possessed”. That is downright closest to the most devilish thing I have ever heard. The only devil spirit I would consider would be the one promulgating that lie. Sure, it’s life in itself- but holy smokes- it’s not a stupid devil spirit, its GROWTH LIFE that’s gone amok. Anybody who’s anybody in Christianity or the medical profession knows this stuff. Why do those in the Way hold on to this kind primitive SUPERSTITION- and even some here? When my older daughter was a sophomore in high school, she started experiencing extreme pain in her left knee. One day she fell on it- the pain was so severe that we demanded it to be x-rayed by the doctors. Then came the news- drop everything, run as fast as you can, it could be the worst thing possible. More x-rays, more tests- it was Osteogenic Sarcoma. If you have not heard of it- it is the absolute worst. It’s cancer in the soft tissues, and literally eats out bone mass. About sixty percent of the kids that contract this thing do not survive. Many do not survive the side effects of the treatments alone. Many have further complications after drugs and surgery- it spreads to the lungs- and most do not survive it when that happens. When I heard this diagnosis- I did not think even once that we might lose her. To me, that was not even an option. Logically, God would have to energize some kind of healing. I did not condemn myself. Would have been easy to do- I know myself better than I should I suppose. One of the main things I prayed for is that her beauty would be protected- that she would retain her beauty through this crap, along with her zest for life.

Still quiet here.. silence may speak volumes..

"Well, spiritually, you would never understand" is completely unacceptable. If it's THAT elusive, that hard to understand, it can't be the word. I knew better than that even when I was busy gorging myself on the kool-aid.

Oh well, we may have to wait a few more eons- cripe- it only took two or three little eunuchs to dispose of Jezebel properly. Surely there is somebody at headquarters that could oust at least two of the stinkers there. Looks like little piddly eunuchs have more "balls" than at least two of the BODs.

"I have seen large-breasted-ladies smash empty beer cans with a breast." Makes me thing of Yoda's advice as the guys are walking into the "titty" bar- "not afraid are you, you WILL be, YOU WILL Be- muwahahahaha.."

All this makes me feel so neglected. You guys are just soooo "lucky" to come accross all that dough just a waitin to be claimed. I only got about one of those offers last year- apparently da debil axed a bunch of them before they even hit my hotmail account, heh heh.

Dunno. Sounds to me like somebody trying to reach "nirvana" through questionable means- get all the little detail lined up JUST right and bingo- everything changes from hell to paradise. Too hard for me.. cripe, I'm not that smart.

Thanks for the "balance" socks.. myself, I met my share of good and bad corps. Seems they were either really really good- wanted to do God's best- those who were bad, well.. I guess you can find good and bad anywhere. I still think either they "had it" or they didn't. If they didn't, all the classes, all the training in the world, all the sacrifice, did not get it. Look at Loy- can't make a silk MOG out of a, well, you know.. Maybe he "had it" at one time, maybe not- maybe he just threw it away. I don't paint everything I learned or experienced from that place with the color of evil. Just some of it. And I still find myself coughing it up. Sure, Vic taught us the word- sure he cared at times. But many times it was laced with strichnine- "ya oughta be mature enough to know you owe us your life" cause you just can't get this anywhere else- is a real prime candidate to be considered poison, not "rightly divided truth". But that poison was enough to nulify a lot of the good for a lot of folks. Still, a lot of us managed to take the good with us. Burned my hand on that stove once- just not again. Too busy burning my hand on other stoves now, heh heh. Any more, even the seemingly innocent idea of a mission statement for an organization really gets my attention. Any kind of "exclusivism" or country club persona, and I'm ready to scream. Just won't put up with it anymore. "How are we different" a lot of times really comes down to "what do we have to sell". That's OK- but lets just be honest about it. No stupid claims- no unreasonable promises or expectations. "No, our magic pill won't make you an apostle, or a prophet- you just may be a regular Joe the rest of your life, and that's OK." The offshoots seem to have taken this position. "Here, we have some material that may be of help". I respect that- a heck of a lot more than the promise-you-the-moon stance of how PFAL was promoted- even by the teacher himself. "This class can answer 85 to 90 percent of any questions you have about the bible"- well, It delivered for me- I really did not have many questions- knew practically nothing about the Bible to begin with. So yes- it did. Others though- didn't answer anywhere NEAR eighty five percent. Unreasonable claim. Enables you to separate truth from error- questionable. Took me decades to get ....ed off about the concept of owing my life to some blood sucking cult. Took me at least three years to figure out that the guy who was screaming the loudest was not necessarily right. Spiritually, I was about as sharp as a brick. But I was the best tongues or interpreter guy this side of the mississippi, heh heh. Another unreasonable claim. Promotes harmony in the home- gads, I won't even go into this one. As of yet, I still would like to hear from some specific parties- besides Galen, Kathy and others who got something out of it. God forbid that I should berate them. And I don't read any "promise you the moon" results there. Sure, it helped- some folk got something tangible out of it- but it's hardly a fitting replacement for the Almighty. Mike, what has it done for you, really? It's a fair question. What has the constant study, the constant "mastering"- the constant "obedience" to da masters last command- what has it done for you? Or what has it done TO you? More nebulous "well, I'm just blessed now"- "I really undestand now"- understand what? "Well, I understand the administrations"- here are dozens of folks that just plain could never forget that simple teaching. Where's the beef? Other folks kindly piped up and said what they got out of it. Even I admit I got some profit out of it. Really- I would really like to know- what is it doing for you?

But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going. If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then logically, this must be true also. I don't buy it- at least now. And that was part of the indoctrination of PFAL. It seems we got a lot of real junk along with the word of God- a lot of crap. And some people are unwilling to dare to call it what it was- crap. I don't see how I bought into that stuff for a minute. You may have had the priviledge of missing the "even worse"- those who could scream the loudest and foulest were revered as those that could do the job, and take on the adversary- they magically had the spiritual inside on everything in your life because they underwent some kind of training or class.. I thankfully only witnessed that only a couple of times. What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions. In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worthy of being given Godhood.. some do. I think that's kind of nuts. some make it hard to separate the good and junk without hurting somebody's feelings- hope I didn't hurt you.

And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..

Galen, tough call sometimes. I think the thing was really taken to extremes. Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me. People spouted off some stuff that they should have known far better. Either people 'had it" or they didn't. In your case, perhaps you "had it". I don't disqualify at least the possibility. But far and wide, what I observed- otherwise well meaning people- if they didn't "have it" were convinced that they did. They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed. They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation. God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.

Maybe an army of those REAL BIG firetrucks with six inch fire hoses could hose out all the crap in an eon or so.. heh heh.

How many "eons" does it take to straighten the stinking place out? Eight? Ten?

Hello Kathy.. yep- I'm thankful for what good I got out of it too. Still, it seems we paid, and kept paying- still paying- I think I know how a cat feels, still coughing up furballs once in a while, heh heh. Just when I think it's all over, here comes another one.. blecch. I think Mike is doing us- or me- more of a service than he realizes. Nowhere else have I been able to cough up this crap and really get a handle on it. Dislike his opinion as much as some do, it still has a beneficial effect. Really convinces me that I'd never go back to some of that crap- never- no matter what the promises, no matter what the guarantees.

And it doesn't taste sweet, either. Ptooie.

That's why they'd never have me back, now. One stupid statement like "if you are really mature, you should know that you owe us your life" and I'd be on them like there's no tomorrow. Even in a church or other place. I wouldn't care if it was "out of order". No friggin way. Normally, I'm a nice guy, try to get along with people- but try this stuff- especially on my kids, and they're gonna see a side of me they wished they never had. I'm still spitting out the crap I swallowed all those years.. ptooie.

That's all well and good, but- I feel a couple challenges are left unanswered. I still believe: 1. I do not owe my very life to ANY ministry that "taught me the word". I consider the implication dishonorable, self-serving and downright DEVILISH. period. They do not "own" me, in any way, shape or form. My Bible says that the earth is THE LORD'S, and the people therein. Yet this was a key theme in the intermediate class- even printed in the materials. Remember the eighties? Loy circulating his little "loyalty oath"? Same dadburned thing. We owe those bunch of numbnuts NOTHING. Except to love perhaps- and believe me, we've paid- again and again. Now they accept no payment. You're too old. Don't need you anymore- they have a younger crowd they're trying to whip into shape to kiss their rears in ways you'd never understand. But it's the same scam, "well, we've given you EVERYTHING (ha!). Now you owe us, big time". Same devilish crap- and it did not start with them, it started in PFAL. 2. Nobody, just nobody can by their own believing or otherwise, turn themselves into a prophet. The whole idea that you can "believe" to perform the function of a prophet without God Almighty's stamp of approval is futile, at the best. Same for any other ministry- includes gifts of healings, helps, governments, etc. Either you have it, or you don't. If you think you can believe to get it, go ahead and try. I know better. 3. Show me the results. Really. Now, or then. If it is what it claims to be, you should get the results that it claims. The results I saw in the seventies- the good old days- were few and far between. Not too mention more often fabricated than not. Among the greatly touted "results" I heard in the seventies: person "miraculously" had money in their checking account. They removed said money to pay for class. Low and behold, the checks out on the account came in the next few days- nothing more abundant than having a half a dozen angry merchants at your door, must have just been the debil, I guess.. Sure, some good things happened, but not to the level that it glorified the greatness of PFAL. Heck, I spoke in tongues and saw a miracle or two LONG before I took any class.

Well, here is at least one more thought.. Lack of results? Loy came up with a nice little explanation- that the spirit of God did not come ENERGIZED, like in the old testament. That seems to fix some of the difficulties.. Oh well, more retemorizing, more S.I.T.ing eighteen hours a day, more "researching" of ministry materials, more stupid dumb blind obedience, more giving- now over fifteen percent, etc. etc. etc. More, more more. I think most folks found that even that did not work, either. Good grief- either its energized, or its not. Either you've got the power, or you don't. You telling me that "the fullness of the spirit" needs YOUR help "getting it started"? Maybe you just need to get out and push a little harder. Like it or not, some of the folk in history that had the MOST to contribute to the Christian Church NEVER spoke in tongues, not once.