Ham

Well, it is still a free country, heh heh.

Well.. some people keep the same workhorse twenty years or so.. That's what I was, a horse. The saddle wasn't too heavy, made me look pretty distinctive.. and I could perform, at least somewhat. Plus I got to look like all the other horses.. Slowly they started tightening the damn thing- and I didn't have a clue of what was really going on. Then came the bit and other restraints. "Smart" people can be really DUMB. Call me stupid- no argument from me, at least.. Ignore things=believing is a good topic. I was trained not to confess negatives. Sure, the "sacred writings" said we were supposed to confess the positives of the word, but in a practical sense, it was extended to not talking or thinking "evil" of someone who did not deserve our trust. Somehow, if we ignored the problems and said the magic words, all would be fine and dandy. I have consequences from some of this stuff I am not willing to share, just don't have the stomach to go back over it again. Probably never "get over it"- and my experiences were not the worst, just AVERAGE. Won't get that stinking saddle on me again.

Yep.. we sure are a bunch of analytical nuts, aren't we, heh heh. What a wide variety of people, different experiences. From what I have read from your posts Galen, your experiences were not that vastly different-just told them when to "shove it" when you had to- or knew better. Personally, a lot of times I did not know any better than to go ahead and do what I was told. I saw folks labelled as possessed for not carrying out dumb instructions to the letter. I imagine they tried hanging that label on you too at times, whether you knew it or not. You must have been "full of spurts" when you refused to toss out stuff written by "copouts".

But to say the world is better without him I may have gone a little too far.. I know some of vic's kids. They are wonderful folks. Kind of like my kids. Athletic, nimble, smart- people that look at me wonder where they get it all from, heh heh.

But anyway.. it does kind of fit in the topic of the thread. I ignored some REAL crap in the guise of "believing". Yep, I had my suspicions about some of the junk that was going on, but refused to let myself think "negative". All doubts were to be avoided- don't want negative results you know. I think we were taught to equate trust in men and men's "ministries" with trust in God. "Owe your stinking life to my ministry" ptooie.

"and that point alone made my experience more pleasant than others." You could call that the understatement of the year.. I hold no hostility towards you- just trying to figure this thing out. Personally, after I was in a year or so, I wondered why they would treat ANYBODY nicely, at least on a consistent basis. With a whole family, maybe there is strength in numbers- some MOG trying to rape one of your family, and I would imagine there would be hell for him to pay. Others did not have the same "luxury". My impression, and it is that only that, not even an opinion- having never seen some of the real bad stuff, it is almost unbelievable for you. Like finding out your best friend is some kind of monster. Maybe you had good leadership. And I would bet they absorbed the crap for you- crap you never saw- barring what I read about your brief corps experience. They did the same for me too, but only sometimes. I can see your point, but I see Rascal's too. Why is your experience so vastly different than that of the vast majority here? And they are not making the stuff up- I've witnessed enough of it myself. It's almost like you two are from two different planets. Your planet "way" was a place of good, lightness, and joy- others, it was a nightmare they couldn't wake up from until they left, or were booted out. Mine was somewhere in between the two. As far a VP and Loy are concerned- I did not personally know either of them- but learning what they did to my sisters, I think the world would have been better off without them. Both of the bastards betrayed us, betrayed us all.

One of my kids has a cat, and has to keep the thing shut to keep it from what I affectionately call "trolling for treasures".

I never changed a roll of it in my life. I keep trying- hard as I try- they just refuse to cooperate and change into something more useful, like gold bullion.

OK.. a couple of years ago I was walking behind the local pizzaria here- lo and behold, I beheld twenty gallon drums of banana puree. At that time, I think all they made was pizza, and the best in a hundred mile radius at that. Just makes me wonder- were they palming off "counterfiet" pizza to the poor unhuddled masses here?

Groucho, sadly, some who have lost the "fight" find themselves patiently waiting for the "return", of the plumber. Alas, no more sorrow, no more joy. The only thing that remains is a constant urge, and hopping on one foot, along with a confident assurance that all will be as it should be, in the end.

Yep.. I find myself beating off dozens of ladies all the time too.. heh heh. What suprises me, still no votes for "absolutely ludicrous". I can only hope..

I thought a little more about it.. if we had "just plain ludicrous", it could kind of be some sort of internet "purgatory" where we send certain posters that are just not plain "nice". I of course would be the forum moderator, heh heh.

Heh heh heh. Well.. what can I say to that.. One of the very FEW times I saw Ophrah on TV- maybe twice- she was arguing vehemently that the roll MUST be posistioned so as to allow the paper to unroll out the back down the wall.. Might be a nice lady, but that was enough for me, heh heh.

You should be VERY thankful I'm not in charge of the world, heh heh.

Still seems to, even to this day.. Makes me wonder why if it did not work the first time around, or sixtieth, somebody would still want to go back and try it all over again. I heard the same stupid stories too. I asked for verification- "well, we don't advertise that stuff because then people wouldn't come to get da verd, they'd just want healing" or some such nonsense. I remember the "black arts" exhibit at my first advanced class though. Most of that stuff was just such a scam- and obviously, at that. It made me wonder how anybody could even consider that it was due to the work of debils or some such nonsense. After a while, anything that they couldn't figure out was labelled as possessed or something..

Ludicrous can be a good thing though. There is an exit on I75 close to Detroit- has a big sign, "Big Beaver Road". If I ever come accross real money someday, I would seriously consider the proposition of generously paying to have a fifty foot statue of a big beaver constructed there where you could see it from the highway.. That should say about all you want to know about me, heh heh.

Heh heh. SOME things would be nice, can't have everything else you know..

Bob, they'd probably just be inviting some real trouble installing one of the automatic jobs- only real "spiritually lazy" people would need it you know.. Besides, they'd probably have to go in debt to be able to purchase the thing.

But what about the toilet paper? There have been several small wars started over which way to install the stuff in the holder contraption- some have it roll over the front, others INSIST that it MUST be installed to roll over the back and down the wall. Wouldn't suprise me if they really got on somebody for installing it in reverse, inviting negative results. Worse yet would be the case if you installed it both ways in different bathrooms in the house. Gotta mean trouble- you'd be, well, "double- minded", and we know what that means..

[deleted] Oldies, I think that was perhaps a fair assessment based on a someone's personal experience. Not a falsehood- perhaps even a reasonable assumption. I saw this kind of thing firsthand also. I saw those, who would otherwise receive the same beatings, given the "priviledge" of sitting in the inner circle- simply because the person happened to intimately know or be related to the right person. "They" were smart even then- the consequences of chasing off whole families would have been more of a problem than they were prepared to deal with. These FEW "exemptions" lasted in my area until the mid-ninties at the latest, then everybody was fair game for scrutiny, tongue lashing and worse. Who knows.. maybe they went easy on you so that someday somebody would be suspicious as to why, heh heh. Cripe- even Dillinger was a nice guy, to a FEW folks. Times he could turn on the charm- and they would have sworn on their mothers grave that he was the nicest guy since the earth cooled.

I agree. I try to leave a loophole in these arguments because I did indeed encounter Corps that had a heart of gold. One of them is my cousin- couldn't say enough nice things about her. Really into it to serve. After spewing out all the bad crap the bast***ds did, sometimes I can't say enough good about what some of them did. Just seems that SOME- and quite a few- of those put in charge just happened to be among some of the worst. Sometimes its easy to be misunderstood.

Galen- yep, outside of limb meetings. Sometimes people that had sceduling conflicts with ministry activities were treated like they had leprosy or something. If they wouldn't "rearrange" their schedule- something must have been "really wrong" with them. They were supposed to get a second rate job that would allow them the time to come to fellowship, and be available to help and participate in classes. If people going to school had scheduling "difficulties", the advice was practically "whadya mean? You think your precious education is bigger than da verd??!!! You WANT to DO the word, don't you?" That would be a more accurate assessment of the situation.. The sad thing is all of this insanity sounded pretty logical to me at the time. I still don't know what happened to the guy with the Master's degree. They "escorted" him outside of the "holy be blessed" 250 mile radius of "headquarter protection". "Assigned" him at least ten states away. Put him in a place where "they" could keep a close eye on him. Haven't heard from him since. Un friggin believable.. Oh yes, the L.B.J.A.'s- they were SOME wannabes, but normally leadership. Maybe they thought somebody with a "miracle" WOW or Corps experience would look good on their resume, who knows.. My eyes must have been so glazed over- didn't even bat an eye at this crap after a while. I guess I was like a lot of other people- thought that was the way life was supposed to really be. From what I've seen, most people treat their horses better. From what I read here, and from conversations I've had, I think we were trained to ignore problems. "Just believe, we KNOW da verd works, DON'T WE?" So I just let problems add up. Year after year. After a while, to me, they just weren't there anymore. But I did not get rid of them. Still just waiting silently to surface again. No wonder I can go nuts sometimes, heh heh.

Anyway, why didn't I just leave? At one point, there appeared to be enough good left in it to put up with the bad. How did I get tangled up in that mess? I think a lot of ways, I was like a horse. The saddle didn't feel too bad, we had some good times and stuff- But slowly, "they" started tightening the leather. More commitment, more giving, more obedience, more more more. Slowly, more and more restraints were added, and I didn't have a clue of what was really happening. I don't claim to be the brightest of the bright or anything.. Its pretty easy to see it looking back now. But don't try it on me, again- or my kids. Won't work anyway, they didn't see "believing" fix everything for their dad anyway. At least their are smarter than me!

Galen, things were not always like that, and not as bad in some areas that I was in- I don't remember a lot of it when the ministry was "younger"- less health issues, younger people- didn't need as much money, but some did occur. Even in those days, doc had to say "quit telling people to quit taking their medicine". Some still did though. In the late seventies, I saw folks being talked out of a good career because some lame-brained jackass thought that it was his place in life to get another notch in his belt by motivating the people to "be all they could be" by going WOW, or corps, or more.. and most were young enough to not be concerned about what kind of financial condition they'd be in in twenty years or so. Or what kind of marketable skills they may or may not have acquired. I guess that's OK when you are younger, but you grow up sometime. In the eighties, we knew who to avoid. The "Hitler" types, the givers of stupid advice, etc. After a while, they got pretty angry- their "talents" being so under-utilized. But even then, we had the option of taking or leaving anything they had to say, and still retain ministry involvement. I saw some of the results of their counsel and refused to seek it from them. In the nineties the "idiots" were IN CHARGE. At least in my area. Couldn't avoid them any longer. Even if you could walk on the water, it wasn't enough. I saw couples split up and one go away in the night.. little explanation, you'd just never hear from them again. "So and so decided not to "believe" the word anymore". Later I find, the "unbeliever" just refused to take any more crap out of the local corps guy. Don't get me wrong. We had a share of some good guys too. But not very many. I saw one marriage survive DESPITE the best efforts of the local clergy. This was in the late 70's. Called the guy possessed and worse because he would not obey a stupid mandate. Told the wife to leave him. I saw worse than that in more recent years. I saw corps sell their homes and give loads of the proceeds to the ministry, because they were not "spiritually sharp" enough to handle MONEY. At least according to their overseers. Yep, they were out of debt alright.. The corps that came to our area HAD to sell their home, uproot their family, and move to an area that they did NOT like. Bitter? They proceeded to dismantle anything good left in this area, and did their best to leave no stone unturned. And their overseers could not see any wrong.. I was PERSONALLY advised to have no meaningful communication with inlaws that were "off the word". They were marked and avoided on "genuine spiritual suspicion". Apparently the wife did not appear as appealing to the limb jackass as he wished. "Must just be possessed.." I saw others advised to not seek college education, that it was earthly, sensual, devilish, etc. That the time was better spent going for "REAL" education, i.e., corps, wow, taking all the ministry classes, etc. I saw one guy manage to get his master's degree, but he paid for it with a LOT of grief from the ministry. He was corps, and he was never really trusted again after he got the degree. If you had a chronic health problem, you were not "believing". If you could not hold down a job, family, "twig", and clean, help the leadership move every two months, help them with their gardening, cart their kids around, etc., you were not "believing". Not "loving". It may have been a learning experience, but it is one I am glad Oldies did NOT get. He got his own share of other ones, I am sure.. From what I know from most of the other people whom I know that are out, they have related to me the same, and or similar events. I don't see how Oldies missed out on all this "loving" stuff, even in the seventies. I wish I was as "lucky".

I personally was subjected to SOME, and witnessed ALL THE ABOVE and MORE. The "above" was bad enough- the "more" would make your hair stand on end.. May not speak for "everybody in da world" but Uncle H. speaks for me. Add to this the religious bigotry exhibited by those on top of the dung heap- don't see how people put up with it- at least in their own thinking. "They" won't let you anywhere NEAR their drinking fountain. "Your kind" are not "welcome" in the least. It's almost like racism, with a religious twist- and you are certainly subjected to it, if you do not "take believing action" no matter how dire the consequences, at "their" slightest whim. I saw one person berated for not "believing" to have their broken arm healed fast enough so as to be able to slave away for the local leadership here. That's the condition of things in the group when I left. Some "country club" to "belong" to. Ptooie.