Ham

Satori, come back.. heh heh.

You have my full agreement on this point. If you find my anwers ambiguous, I really take it as a compliment. I'd rather have a bag of uncertainties, than a boat load of .....

I wouldn't argue with that, in a million years, heh heh. I'm just another fool, stumbling along the path of life.. can't see where I'm going half the time- no argument here. "Yet so many go on blithely thinking the dogma is impeccible". Not me, not anymore.. It took a while, but I finally agree that somebody that does not believe as I do may actually have a few answers. But really. Why exercise? Why do anything? Is it because you BELIEVE that it will improve life? Prosperity? Health? Sure, I guess some do it out of fear of the consequences of what's going to happen if they don't.. Maybe these mundane physical things are more "spiritual" than people think. Maybe that's the way God made things to be anyway- who knows. I can't pretend to. "How about a modicum of the wisdom and power we associate with Christ? How about the ability to heal your friends, feed the masses, and other selfless, benevolent, and really neat stuff attributed to the spirit of God?" I honestly don't think that this is everybody's mission in life, at least as far as the supernatural and miraculous is concerned. The number of times somebody went in and cleaned out the hospital wards can be counted on less than half a hand. There are people that feed the masses every day, perhaps not as Christ did at one time. There are people that heal the sick, but not with supernatural means- is not this equally valid? "My point to all of this, with respect to your posts, is that the emporer has no clothes." Now, now- a streaker, I am not, except perhaps when I was very very young. I managed to slip away, and they DID get pictures. Nothing like that has happened since, heh heh.

Sure, that would be nice. But for everybody, it is different. Maybe this fits in a little with the "God is no respecter of persons" concept. I think God is willing to work with what He's got- individuals. Doesn't matter who- but its in the category of our understanding. And everybody is different. I have seen God at work in, God forbid, (heh heh), people that are NOT christian. Honestly, I'm still trying to sort through this stuff and figure it out- may never happen. But its fun, heh heh.

Well, and you wanted it short. I tried, heh heh. Just managing stress and anger can perform WONDERS for some people. Common sense helps. Eating the right kind of food.. exercise All this "believing action" is little more than stewarding what God gave us, in my opinion. And praying for the occasional miracle when all the above fails, but I have seen some get "missed" in that regard. Don't ask me why for that. Those are a few ways we are responsible for what happens. I think the spiritual and natural embrace in a little more intimate way than we were led to believe. But what about genetics? That you have absolutely no control over. In this present world, you literally were born to die. Delay, postpone the inevitable- but if you live long enough (heh heh), you are going to die. Period. No believing, no health food fad, no medicine, no doctor, nothing- will delay the inevitable. "Believing" or not. I know of people that STILL think that if they believe right, they will never die. Nice illusion. In the long run, we are all headed to the same place, heh heh. I guess in that way we are all the same. I think the results/lack of results assessment, and a lot of fault placing, are false assessments to begin with, because we are individuals. For myself, I am comfortable with uncertainty. A measuring stick for people fails, because I think they are all different sizes and shapes to begin with, spiritually speaking.

As far as "whosoever" is concerned, I'm still working on it. Not every mountain I talked to walked off into the ocean.. I think it falsely appeals to the ego of man, the idea that you can go around bossing mountains around. Unfortunately, I think God wants most of them where they are at, heh heh.

Yes, no, and maybe. Lets see.. if the book is true, we are already heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ, have access to God's presence. What more do people think they need? I don't think God owes us another stinking thing. Not entitled to be a prophet, a healer, a this, a that.. But in a broad sense, I think we are entitled. Entitled to live a healthy life, to prosper, to enjoy life- or in other words, be joyful. In some ways, I think this is up to us. In other ways, obviously not.

Well, I don't think to teach it was THAT easy. Perhaps "skillfully crafted" would apply. I think we got a homogenized blend of muck composed of faith, believing, blind obedience, and every promise conceivable, carefully wrapped and even tied with ribbons. I still think believing works, specific only to context. Not the promise you the moon if you can believe big enough to get it nonsense.

Perhaps from a certain point of view. "Well, God just OWES it to me- me, me, me.." ah, the ego of man.. In some categories, yes, I think He is.

No. If the Almighty sent an angel, and said- "the ship will be destroyed, but all will survive" I would have LITTLE trouble believing it. In a specific sense, you'd have to be "stupider than stupid" (sorry, heh heh) to miss it. Genuine believing is way to hard to mess up, at least in my opinion.

Yes. I think the fault lies in the claim that an inferior product could produce the desired results. To me, the very idea that we could be turned from a pig's ear to a fully functioning, all nine-all the time swiss army knife for the Lord if we followed five simple steps, or even five-hundred, is beyond ludicrous. I also think it is a failure of the flesh itself. In my opinion, it CANNOT of itself yield spiritual results. Can't be educated enough, can't sacrifice enough- but you can hardly blame it either. It would be like criticising a chimpanzee for not being able to produce a Pulitzer-winning novel. Maybe its a little simplistic, but I think either people "have it" or they don't. I have met those that did, and those who only convinced themselves that they did.

"Is it our fault?" I think its yes, no, and maybe (or rather, I have no idea). Let's say you are stupid enough not to have a broken leg properly set, thinking God's gonna do it because he owes you or something. Let's say you end up losing it. Its still yes, no or maybe. If you can't rise beyond the error that you have been taught, I would blame the teacher. If you really know better, you're on your own. But I still swear by number three though- I probably will never really know. I often tell myself this even when I THINK I've got the answer. Its a hundred times easier, and more loving and merciful, NOT to try to fix blame- unless we are dealing with some really stinking bad negligence- like people saying, "throw away your medicine, God will heal you.." or some such nonsense. At least in my opinion.

Is that short enough Satori? Heh heh.

That's one of my favorite points. And even somebody's guaranteed twelve-step self-improvement seminar is not gonna do it. "How to be a prophet in twelve easy steps". Or even four years of intense study under the "master"- "Now you can be the MOG that you always wanted to be".. One thing you can say, it failed miserably. I don't think you can blame those of us who naively bought into it. I would blame the claim of having the absolute. It was really made to SELL.

Heh heh heh heh heh.. priceless, Exie.

"And The Word Went Over Me And The World" Maybe not the Word Song, but the explanation sure went over my head, heh heh.

Honestly- fifteen regions, three V.P.'s- looks like they are trying to redefine the organization. Kinda wasteful to put old sour wine in new wineskins..

Absolutely true David, in my opinion also. But how often I personally tried that, thinking if I had stuff lined up just right, or had just the right picture of the result I wanted in MY mind, that God would HAVE to bring it to pass. A couple of times, it worked. Usually, it didn't. "The heart of a child asking for something is asking from need, or desire, or total lack of ability to *fend* for themselves." So much for "holy boldness", at least the way I was taught, or at the very least, the way I understood it.

FIFTEEN regions, heh heh heh. If the numbers of folk involved would justify having fifteen regions, I think it would be more miraculous than the miracle of the loaves and fishes.. Maybe that's just a new name for who knows what.. Or maybe its just wishful thinking. "well, if we just pretend that we are really a highly attended, loving, professional group, people will come". But three V.P.'s- makes a little sense IF you are a rather large, diverse, PROFESSIONAL organization. One organization I am involved with has three vice presidents, one for educational type services, one that does a LOT of legal work, and one that oversees international operations. This is a rather large organization, with many hundreds of thousands of VOTING members. All three of these VP's each have at least a PHD in something, and at least in something RELEVANT to the position they are in. Wonder what kind of qualifications these new VP's in podunk ohio have? "Well, I could balance a checkbook the last time I tried..." "Well, I can yell and scream when I don't get my way..." But here they are, taking a big, bold new step into the twenty first century, ptooie. Nothing but window dressing. Gotta keep up with the Joneses- if THEIR corporation has to have 3 VP's, well then OURS oughta.. gotta keep up appearances, you know.." Good grief. What kind of work will they have to do? Only thing I can think of- it's gonna take at least three VP's to make sure Rosie and Donna's rears are kissed properly.

Overseeing OHIO? Good grief. Not even a region.. Sounds like "dear" old harv is on the fast track out of there. I wonder how he'll adapt to the real world, where he can see what the stupid, insane mandates did to the flock.

Same here. I guess I still believe in believing, just in the right context.

Oh yes.. "you say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass". What in the dadburned world is "it"? "Well, its Da Word".. If its that simple, I think people would have NO PROBLEM clearing out hospitals and sanitariums by saying it and believing it.. Life would be so stinkin boring. Anything you want is yours, at your beck and call.. After about fifty years or so of wine, schnapps, music and naughty women folk, I would be kind of worn out, heh heh. I think that kind of thinking is fairly intoxicating. Seems people get jazzed up just THINKING they can perform the magic ritual, and get whatever they want.. whether it actually works or not. I think its addictive. I have seen the most angry side of people when I challenged them to just verify if what they "believe" really works, or not. Give me some details! Anybody can talk.. "You say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass" is only valid in a few instances, at least in my opinion. Maybe that's why old Loy and others got so mean. Finally realized that they were not able to jump over debils with a single bound, that they were not anywhere near the men they convinced themselves they were supposed to be.

Three V.P.'s. Hummmmm. lets see.. Could it be ole Rosie is egotistical enough to think she has to raise up several people to be able to take over her "job"? Hmmm. One to handle planning, one to coordinate legal matters, and one to "coordinate" Donna.

Wonder if Moneyhands is the best that she could come up with to represent Da Vey to the Brittish- God have mercy on them..

Too bad, we won't have good ole harve to kick around anymore, heh heh. Makes me wonder though- if the vice prezzes have a vote to oust "poor" Rosie..