Ham

Yep. It seems a "unique" belief characterizes a group. Something to "circle the wagons" around. Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes not. And you make another valid point, in my opinion, Rascal. We don't really like being foolish. I don't think anybody does. But why in the WORLD did ole doc snag in such a good one for us to park our wagons around? We would have been better off if he chose the belief that the world is flat. Good grief- the man had a degree- discounting his nice paper doctorate, he did have a valid master's degree. Makes you wonder.

I thought this kind of fit here, because this was one of the "inner secrets" ascribed by da vey. What gives this kind of belief such an appeal? Is it that people would rather not believe that their fellow human beings are incapable of such horrific acts? Or is it the charismatic presentation by certain people? How is it that people are conviced to debate about numbers- "well, there couldn't have been six million- one or two tops" as if that justifies anything? And it seems that education is not a common denominater. People with VALID college degrees succumb to it. What's the deal?

Well, since PFAL is no longer Online, what else is there to do? :)-->

Song, that's nice. My brother tells me that where he lives, they call it the "New Jersey Salute". Just another kind gesture people give to each other when driving in eight lanes of insanity..

I would only hope that this does not fall on deaf ears, Belle.

Catcup, it wasn't Jo*n's fault. The corpse refused to coorperate. Recalcitrant SOB..

What would satisfy me? Well, lets see you "walk on water", for starters. Let me see the miraculous.

Fifteen pages, holy cow.. Mike. My question STILL lies unanswered. What in the stinkin world is PFAL doing for YOU? If you think you're some kind of modern Moses or something.. I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. Nobody's gonna lead me from behind, anymore. Let's see you get out front. Let's see it. Get out front, show the masses what it can DO. If it REALLY works, that will sell your product far better than fifteen pages of nonsense.

So this is the short version. "What in God's name is PFAL DOING for YOU?"

I don't know about thousands being "blessed"- unless you equate "blessed" with "eyes glazed over". Honestly. Where are the blessings? What ARE they? "Let's see, I am peaceful now.." Peaceful? About what? Why? I was VERY peaceful BEFORE I even heard of the Vey Misery. Despite the nature of these posts, I still am peaceful. "Well, I speak in tongues.." OK. That's nice. I did too, long BEFORE PFAL. "I really know what love is all about now." Really? I love enough to try to keep my kids and others from going through the same saw mill. Thank God, they are ten times smarter than I was. Love? HOW in God's name, are you MANIFESTING it? What concrete, tangible, effect is it really having? "Well, I have such of an abundance now". Please, let me hear the details. WHAT kind of abundance? Physical abundance? Financial abundance? I have $600.00 in the bank. No hope of retirement. I will very likely work until the day I die. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm still OK. But where is the promise to the tither? I should be ROLLING in dough, but I am STILL in a position where I could be homeless within a matter of weeks, at any one time. Spiritual abundance is wonderful, but let's hear about it. "Spiritual" does not imply "unexplainable". "I'd explain it, but you would not understand". Try me. I'm not stupid, at least any more. Maybe I'm spiritual, and have the mind of Christ, more than you think.

So lets see. I am estimating over twenty years AT MY BEST, and no cookie. I may start my own "organization". "If you will do exactly as I tell you, you will manifest the GREATNESS of the power of God". Doubters beware the wrath of Ham. No results? It is OBVIOUSLY your fault. Maybe its because of YOUR fear. Maybe you did not improve enough on the tithe- try sending me fifteen percent of your income.. That should set me up with a mansion and a radio in every room. But disobey, and may Ham have mercy on your deluded souls...

Catcup, you will never get through on a doctrinal level. The lack of results among thousands of bug eyed, devoted followers of the class, following the message down to the real heart of it, and following every micro-detail is the most convincing argument. One that I have not seen adequately addressed. Not one person has been raised from the dead- not one. And that is the personal experience of many hundreds of grads I had acquaintance with. Not a stinking one. I know Jo*n L*nn tried it once, but the corpse refused to cooperate. Not one "real deal" healing.. I mean one that really shook the community to the foudations or anything. Sure, I prayed for people and they "felt better"- that's nice, but still rather inconsequential. A few have reported something like that, in all fairness it very well could have happened, and a handful were documented- but what happened to the promise that we could be walking Christs and clean out the hospitals, so to speak? Where are the miracles? What a "cute" strategy. Promise the world, promise that "you too can do the works of Jesus Christ (i.e. the miracles, the healings, etc)". Then if anybody asks where all the activity went, they are now bad. Bad, bad, bad. Bad Thomas, "remember the lesson of Thomas", how he was such a rotten scoundrel for even thinking about questioning Jesus' credentials. "We are supposed to believe then see" is then wielded as some form of reproof.. Ptooie. I didn't make the claims. If you can claim you can jump over the moon, by all means, let's see YOU do it first. Don't tell me that I have to do it, I've TRIED. Believe me- I tried, again, and again, and again.. I estimated- AT LEAST seventy times through that stinking class, and I still can't even raise a stinking rat from the dead. And that was me at my BEST. The BEST years of my life, the highest level of "believing" and commitment. The most sincere and dedicated effort to understand and apply the materials. What more do you want out of me? I have no more to give. The only thing I have NOT given, Mike, is my physical life. "Unfortunately", that is NOT available. Its just not worth it. Sorry for such a long post, I hope somebody gets something out of it..

Yep. Hams resist change, too.. But that's how I got my introductory license- it was a no code license- in 1993. I have hundreds of cards from oodles of countries also- haven't counted them all, but probably 120 or so countries. I usually send code with a hand key, but let the computer do the work in contests. Its too much for me to send the same thing over and over for hours on end with a hand key..

A trip to the Holocaust Museum perhaps is a VERY good idea for younger folks- you have to explain away all kinds of stuff then..

As for myself, I bought the lie. I was fooled by the thin veneer of supposed "science", the arguing about numbers actually murdered, the rationalization. It was very chilling indeed, to read what the "other side" had to say.

I think the outrageous claim was made for a reason- it made the product more sellable. "Some people will never be what they really want to be because of cowardice and intimidation" May be closer to the truth, but it just doesn't have the same "ring" to it- "Fear is believing. Believing is a law.."

Typical. If you don't understand it, or agree with it, call it possessed. If you REALLY don't understand it, and it gets under your nerves, call it Seed of da Serpent. Good grief- that IS the legacy of "Atheletes of the Spirit"..

But that would have just been throwing salt in the wounds, heh heh.

They should have REALLY thought this thing through. They may have been able to get box 328 instead..

You'd think TWI would just forget about all the principles, and think of the money. I wonder how many copies of "da class" have made their way out of Belieze.. Cripe- even at $150.00 a crack, there are potentially thousands of individuals lined up just waiting for it. Perhaps even a few of us on greasespot, just to have it for some kind of "reference" for one reason or another.. Even with today's devaluated currency, they would generate a tidy sum. With the current slave labor "employed" at headquarters, overhead per each copy wouldn't top ten or fifteen dollars, you'd think. Whether or not you agree with it doctrinally or practically, you have to admit they are throwing their only marketable product down the hole.

Well, I would only guess that it is NOT illegal to import it.. mainly because we have not seen any lawyering on the part of TWI, at least YET. This PFAL on DVD really is old news- I think they've been at it for a couple of years now. TWI would've been on it "like a texan on a pork chop". If they could have. Or maybe they've just grown tired of all the legal shenanigans- who knows.

Perhaps- they COULD.

Belle, I can just imagine the first staff meeting he would "enjoy".. "and if you think you are EVER gonna take over, just know that I've crapped out men TWICE your size.."

I wonder if it is not too late for that. That'd probably be the last nail in their coffin..

I think the key phrase in all this is "seems to". I think that is where many actually went with "the revelation manifestations" in the ministry- some were convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had the inside skinny about EVERYTHING in your life. Usually it detailed "whose fault is it?" Usually they were dead wrong. I'm not saying that you can't have a real experience of this sort. I have a couple times, everything seemed to make sense- just doesn't seem to last very long..