Ham

May be 19 or 20, lost count, but- I repair TV's and other electronic stuff, but I'd rather sit home and play with advanced calculus and chemistry books than to watch TV. Now the real biggie: It annoys me to no end when "you people" leave me holding the bag, with my name on "just plain silly" for weeks on end with no one else replying, well, maybe I deserve it :o-->

OK Sharon, I'm still waiting for nr. one..

Quite true. But I think the heart of the problem, was Wierwille and others tried to resurrect a unique version of a "christian" Jihad for modern times. More commitment. More this, more that.. Loy claimed that it required blood, sweat, and tears, if you had any "salt" to you.. And that there are "those among us who would GLADLY execute you"- for homosexuality, "unfaithfulness", etc.. as if they were doing God service or something.

Another thread got me on this again.. Good grief. Maybe its more of a teaching called "how to weasel anything out of the almighty in five easy lessons". Really. You get in town, and you scout out the lay of the land (what's available) Now you start working out the details of how you're gonna get it. Act religious, pray, picture yourself walking on the moon- maybe you don't think you're really doing this, but perhaps you are trying to prove to God that you believe or something.. but its not out of love. It's to get something for oneself, somehow scam it out of HIM. Then you have to convince HIM that its for a good purpose. That it will be used properly to move the verd, or to show how a "believer" prospers, or etc, etc,.. But what you can squeeze out of God, well, you want something that you can carry off. Something that may require some kind of commitment or self-sacrifice, well, you don't NEED THAT. If all else fails, remind the Almighty that he surely has the ability and willingness to pull it off, if He is "anybody" in the universe.. And we actually thought that God would somehow see it OUR way.. good grief. I think its somewhere close to blasphemy to think the almighty can't see through such a transparent ploy.

Same nonsense, available, yes. Guaranteed, no. What a great "reward"- ptooie.

I don't know.. if you are in a HABIT of talking, it should not be a big deal. Just say it. But I can see where a lot of TWI nonsense broke down trust between me and former spouse. The former leaders were EXPERTS in treating each spouse in a very different manner. I honestly thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread hit the scene. When she told me some stuff, I found it very hard to believe. She would say "we need to talk" when what she really meant, I now think, was "you need to believe what I am saying". Maybe if she said that, things may have been different- maybe not- I wasn't exactly in a real good state of mind. In a lot of ways, neither was she.. I had no idea what kind of snakes we were dealing with, until long after I left.

Sorry Belle, your choo choos are so much fun, heh heh. If that gave you a headache reading it, think what it did to me writing it..

"Ms (?) Rivenwoof, you are instructed to answer the question" "At no time, never ever, did I not ever refuse to tell the truth to this great court of law..." Prosecuter: "Ms (?) Woof, please answer the question. Rosie: "I object" "I have at all times and in every circumstances in my efforts not given a proper answer, and I do not refuse to not to do so never again. Edited to give nots and nevers there places where they never should have not been to begin with.

May not ever get it to stick though. Probably take two or three days establishing what counsel defines as "debt".. Probably end up being similar to WJ Clinton's definition of "sex".

Thanks Cindy!. Pretty good stuff there. I think for it it to be effective, the mindset can't be "what can I get out of this". Maybe that's why I didn't actively seek this kind of instruction when I was younger- just too immature.

Yep. How low can you go.. I can only imagine. Turned into a finger pointer. "THIS needs done". My ex saw it with the old leadership here. What really got her was when their three year old daughter started doing it too. Bastards. They never showed this kind of treatment to me. Just another way to try to divide people, I guess. I thought she was nuts, until I finally saw it for myself. God, forgive me.. But there Donna sits still, another disqualified finger pointer.. Probably forgot what you even use the little brush for.

Makes sense MO. But I think in Moneyhands case, the "friends" are too AFRAID to say anything.

Don't know about all of them. But I think they are labelled guilty by (ex) association. Even back in the "good old days", not every twig was a cult, either. Can't say that with much certainty now. My opinion is anybody out of that place, who was in leadership capacity, who wants to bring "da verd to da world" so to speak, should recognize that they are going to have to live with a little bit of scrutiny, and I think rightly so. For myself, the first time they claim superiority or some kind, or exclusive ownership of the truth, or even IMPLY it, that would be enough to make my hair stand on end. Even from something like a mission statement. Perhaps for some. Maybe some offshoots are like a spiritual methadone treatment program. "We will abuse you just a LITTLE bit so you will be more comfortable during withdrawl". Myself, I went off of the cult business cold turkey for about a year.. I think that was the best for me. The withdrawl symptoms were not that bad..

Yep. Who knows.. maybe he's just sitting there wringing his hands, trying to figure out if it is all too late.. if its the right thing to do.. But its not too late. The guy is still alive. But in all fairness, maybe "Mr" Moneyhands is just too busy- Probably been reaming some guy a couple of new ones for putting five pieces of ice in his water instead of four. Pretty important you know, that's gotta at least take a couple of weeks.

So "Mr." Moneyhands, it has been almost THREE WEEKS since Belle posted this simple request. Done anything yet? Or just leave the guy in the dumper YOU put him in? What about your precious doctrine, don't let anything slide for even 24 hours? And its been another three weeks. Oh well. No compassion, no love- another debt not paid.

Belle, I'll group several comments here. Hope its not too long.. And who is he (or they) to dictate whether certain material things are "involved" in MY life? How soon they have forgotten this "debt". How about Mrs. Wierwille, and many, many others? Oh yes. THEY define to whom or what THEY owe. Pretty convenient.. Lessee.. telling an elderly lady if she didn't like how they treated her relatives, that she could just leave her home and go live with the "cop outs". They have a debt in regard to respect that they will NEVER be able to repay. Never. I note no promises held out in all of this- just another stupid "it is available". It is "available" to go to the moon, too. Where in the world did they get that? I used to think this too, because it sounded so straight-forward and religious. What if you have no physical things? This concept would imply that you also would be given no spiritual things to take care of. I have known people that have taken care of substantial riches, and spiritually, they are so spiritually discerning that God couldn't get through to them if he used a baseball bat. Maybe more later..

Awww, thanks Belle. :o-->

Yep. Now if they would just take it to the next level. Imagine the hundreds of hundreds, fifties and twenties that I tossed to that stinkhole. Imagine all of the spurts they could REALLY get rid of it they tallied it all and sent it back to me..

The really really strange thing near the end of my involvement- even some people's money was not even welcome at der vey. They would send it back. I guess their "god" was so helpless that he couldn't protect them from all those spurts flowing into headquarters on the back of tainted twenties, fifties and hundreds..

Actually I feel better about it now.. Thing I am suprised is my marriage lasted as long as it did without real help. As far as communication was concerned, I really tried- I think I just did not know how. So much for a "how to do it" organization..

I wish we got that kind of thing in da "ministry" instead of all the religious hogwash..

Hey, I probably missed at least a half a dozen or so..

And well it does work, when it does. "You are right. Yes, I am dense as a brick at times, I know I need help, but I am trying. I really do care, so please just tell me.." If I tell you, you won't get mad? Not in a million years. "You left the toilet seat up". At times you have to resist the temptation to laugh, sometimes little things are indeed a big deal for the other party. I guess you can't assume anything about anybody. In your opinion, they should KNOW you care- especially after receiving such day in and day out, but sometimes they don't. True, sometimes the other party is plain unhappy and doesn't really know why. That kind of thing is a little more difficult to work out. Sometimes you can never draw it out.

Yep. Going to the principal's office.. "now you're gonna get it" heh heh. Sometimes, once the woman has undivided attention, "You really oughta know what you did to hurt me". "Well, what did I do?" "You don't KNOW???!!!" Nope. Tell me. "Well. You did, well. I can't believe you don't know what you did". I'll admit I am dense. I am a guy after all. But I try..

Before anybody gets mad, let me say I agree that sometimes a lot more time than that is needed to communicate about a more serious issue.. or for just meaningful day to day dialogue.