Ham

And the guilt- of coming to grips that I MYSELF at times betrayed my own brothers and sisters in Christ- at the prompting of that putrid organization. Sounded logical at the time, at least. And they were reading the Bible.. I have only been successful in resolving only about seventy five percent of this crap.. The rest, I have to live with. May NEVER resolve it.

Took me YEARS to figure out that if I didn't get the front parking spot at the store, that it wasn't because my car was possessed or something.. Years to evaluate doctrine that was practically useless.. Yes, I was able to sort SOME good out of it.

You are right on a point here. Not every evil thing in the world gets traced back to TWI- just about sixty-five percent of the evil in MY life. I still fight this ..... A guy pulls in front of me on the road.. "God, can't we do SOMETHING about this?" Almost EVERY STINKING TIME. At least now, it only takes me three seconds to flush that stinking thought down the drain. And there's LOADS of other crap, so deeply imbedded, its taken YEARS to root it out..

One more thing.. I think they made "Christianity" LOOK FUN. Yes, no more drably robed characters smacking the back of your hand with a ruler if you stepped the wrong way.. at least at first. Sure- "you can be a christian, and have the time of your life, too". So appealing to the mind and body of man.. Look at loy. Just quote the bible, be able to put on a good show, and all is well. Just go ahead then, rape as much of the flock as you want to, all things are INDEED pure, you know.. Same for vic.

I for one, believe that life is spiritual to begin with.. But anyway, let's say a guy learns about the lord while he's in JAIL. Certainly can't describe a jail as a godly, christian, love evoking atmosphere.. Still doesn't excuse actions taken by sadistic guards or other officials. Is God "there"? Apparently. Some people actually claim they got born again, and learned the bible while there. What about a freak show, with a hooligan of a "minister", who hides behind religious skirts while pillaging and raping his "flock"? Ah, they got "the word"- but it still does not validate the campaign as a godly, religious event.. Just for ME- I personally conclude that this is no different. God has no choice BUT to be there.. though He may rather be somewhere else! I can think of a couple of posters that got FURIOUS when I asked what the "results" were. "You'll be SUPRISED with the RESULTS you'll get from coming back to.... so and so.." Please, list them.. Myself, twenty some years of servitude, and I was suprised with the LACK of results. "Well, I spoke in tongues" I say, "If you were just a LITTLE MORE than a animal, you could still SIT, even in a RC church" "I am so peaceful" Of COURSE you are. "They" will hide every bit and all of the questionable doo doo, and "let" you live in your "perfect" world. No worries, mate.. believing will fix everything.. "I am so blessed".. SURE you are. Well, let's hear what the definition of "blessed" is- "Well, its just, you know, so blessed". Really convinces me.. no frowns in der vey.. I suggest that MANY of the "blessings" were no more than a carefully crafted illusion. A bunch of nice, smiley people, enjoying each other's company.. nothing wrong with that in itself. But I saw a group of people in the corner bar here like that last week. Didn't make the bar God, either..

I would suggest an alternative- you received "the truth" IN twi, not FROM twi. "Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness SHALL be filled". If you really got it, fine- but God could've gotten it to you while you hypothetically were in the RC church. He did for others. And that in itself does not validate THEM as a godly, christian organization either.

Well, I think I developed a lot more "fruit" after leaving that lousy excuse for a religion. I have seen people with real problems change- people TWI would drop in a heartbeat- just by consistently lending a hand, and without shoving my current set of arcane dogmas down their throat. I think I would call it longsuffering- for lack of better definition. The Evan makes a real good point: But that was what "fruit" was supposed to be used for in the old ministry. Hang it on the tree, and the people will come.. My fruit doesn't get hung on any stinking tree anymore..

Well.. who's to say that that indeed was not the case? But I won't go there, at least today.. I think the whole point is: God indeed did NOT call us to that lousy excuse for a religion.. If anything, God called us to sonship, if the epistles are right. Not to some stinking, hellish organization. Was God there? I don't think He has a choice in the matter.

They are sacrificing their own children to an evil, vindictive god, that would turn them into a greasespot by midnight, if they should ever leave the nest.. A god- that will wad you up, and throw you away, when you no longer can cut the mustard, at least in their terms.. A god- that you can NEVER satisfy.

Good grief. They are even sacrificing intellectual honesty, excusing vic's plagiarism. They are learning to value an organization on a false or misleading ASSUMPTION: "heck, no fiascos for six whole years now.." They are willing to sacrifice ANYONE who does not measure up to their narrow-minded standard. They are willing to sacrifice an honest assessment of an individual because of an illusion: "you LOOK poor and fat since you left.." Sadly, this is as current as the state of affairs there can get..

Maybe not literally. But look what they are sacrificing them TO: From Georgio, if you'll permit me to copy it one more time.. Oh well, just taking it to the next generation or something.. Honestly. These kids are sacrificing: Their self-worth, and replacing it with group approval Their logic. The little possibility they may have left of making an honest connection with others in any human kind of manner.. Many of them are sacrificing promising careers, so they will not incur any form of debt, including student loans.. probably end up like me in thirty years. Back to school at a community college somewhere.. They very likely will NEVER own a house. Many of them very likely are sacrificing their SANITY- to wake up in twenty years, and find all their sacrifice is to no avail. Maybe they are not literally sacrificing the kids, but that would probably be a more compassionate way to go.. Probably the WORST sacrifice is at the end of Georgio's little list: The innocence and spirit of youth.

Makes more sense to me too.. I hope you find a little bit more peace in this.

All right. But I'll be "brief" about it..

Actually Oldies, I think if people really GOT God's blessings in their lives, I personally CAN'T make them of none effect. I don't think God's blessings are exactly THAT fragile. Kind of reminds me of the Psalm: "If I make my bed in hell, thou art there.." But lets be honest- hell is hell. God didn't exactly CALL us there..

Only The Shadow knows..

I sometimes wear Fruit of the Loom.. does that count?

Yep. Life was good in da "camp"- ESPECIALLY if you were a commandant or SS or something.. The SOB's would go home at night- "Hi honey, how was your day... sure was murder at the shop today".. then he'd kiss the children and go to bed.. and not lose a minute of sleep.

Rascal, I am really beginning to agree, whole-heartedly.. I think some folks constant justifying of the evil with the apparent good did it. If that's your only argument, "well, most (??? more like a FEW) got good out of it. It hadda be God.. I can't stomach that answer any more. It was like the concentration camps. One line led to the barracks, and LOTS of labor- The other line led to the gas chamber (motorcoach). Boy, we were so "lucky"..

Good grief- they weren't just being little bad boys, or something. And it wasn't just some little weakness in life either.. At least the one guy was a SERIAL rapist. Wasn't like he said the fish was twenty inches when it was only fourteen.. "did a few bad things" is a pretty big stretch- even for a euphemism..

I would modify this to some extent- "Self-professing Christians who MAY HAVE done the truth and do not presently do the truth and God's will, yet are approved by their immediate superiors, are more than prone to committing rape, molestation, virtual murder and general mayhem". This more accurately reflects what happened in Alaska.

OK. I'll raise my right hand, "I solemnly swear never to post anything like this in the computer question forum again." I did nine hail Paw's.. six glory be to da caffeine.. :o-->

I was just kind of happy to see something potentially useful come with the thing..

Simply to keep the case closed. Why, I have no idea- I don't know why they even bothered with the thing- as if you're gonna put the package up on a bookshelf somewhere and admire it.. Maybe my friend next door had a unique experience though.. claims despite anti-virus programs and stuff, his machine still got trashed.. just by picking up the mail. he curses the name of A O double hockey sticks..

Georgio, I hope you don't mind me reproducing your comments here. I think this pretty much answers the question about whether TWI is getting better or not:

Another thought: The Vey's teaching on SIT, that it is so EASY to do, and that it cannot be counterfiet- greatly minimizes their actual role in DELIVERING the result. I have heard several people being told to wait for the class to SIT. Why? Wouldn't need any stinking classes then, would they?