Ham

Well, that's the easy way to say it but he also claimed scientific control, mathematical and scientific precision. Not to mention convincing.. I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly. Now I find there really wasn't a difference anyway.

The first session of the class "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" I question vic's "knowledge of da bible" as being the precise meaning of this.. But what is this but another imaginary problem? "well, I'd a better learn what da man is saying so I don't get destroyed..." I wasn't "destroyed" the day before, what made that day any different? I think vic was far more salesman than "man of the cloth" so to speak..

Yeah. I can see how something like might have a few benefits, not to an individual, but a COMPANY. Find out who's weak. Destructive testing though, in my opinion. Significant that the whole board is/has been involved with spiders and dreams and such. Maybe they are a product of their momentus experience after all.

That answers many, many questions. Especially the one, "why are they sooooo screwed up.."

"minister?" Interesting the fella doesn't mention where he got ordained, or what schools or qualifications. Person would have to have some REAL qualifications before I let them work on MY head with a pickaxe..

I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry.. I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process. When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling. Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"?

Thanks for the compliment, I think... Some of my "humor" has been so warped by vey speak, this is the only place on the planet that I can get a laugh at times.. My best friend here is only beginning to understand how getting the front parking spot at Walmart can be equated with spirituality..

I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry.. I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process. When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling. Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"? whoops.. wrong thread..

So, there I was, six months later.. "so mister, you know that feeling, you walk out and a car nearly hits you, the FEAR..."

"you could sit around home, studying the bible, but how would you like to grow ten years spiritually in one?" surrrrrre. "you NEED to go WOW.."

Been thinking about this for a while. Why were "they" successful in selling PFAL, other classes and seminars, etc..? I think largely because they were successful in selling the idea that you NEEDED it. "well, you know the feeling, you walk out in the street, almost get hit with a car, and the FEAR.." OK.. "well, do you think God wants you to live in fear? that he wants fear in your life?" well.. of course not "what would you give to get rid of fear.." they've practically got you.. Find (or make) a need, and then try to fill it. You have to have the customer identify with the product, then it's easy.. your pen or mine.. And I think it "worked", as long as you did not have "real" problems.

more public statements: Hurt STF?? what about PEOPLE? I think he meant what he said. I think he cares mainly for the survival of the organization.And still no real personal accountability. Still blames the devil- "the enemy has hurt STF via my failures" Sounds like J.L.'s demeanor toward us. "I'm right, buy my book. If you have a 'problem' with that, call me". Just another "morass of posturing".

Yeah, what he said.. Some "crap" I really need. I think it is typical of vey practices. Define a problem that you do not have, and then invent a cure that you don't need, or are better off without.

Did I swalllow it? Yes, for the most part. There were a few "discrepencies" with what I knew about science, but I put those on the back burner for a few years.

I thought sand was scratch in the catbox of life..

Yep.. no accountability. If you get the "results", whoopee. Praise the program.. If your brain gets turned into swiss cheese, well, you were immature. Praise the program..

and as to the "hold harmless" agreement: If I were bungee jumping, or sky diving.. or mountain climbing.. (of the which I don't plan to do :) ) I can understand the need for a hold-harmless agreement. Makes perfect sense.. if you plan on doing an extremely hazardous activity, you're on your own. But a "christian self-improvement seminar"? What is it, bungee jumping for the Lord?

True, when the shoe fits on the other foot, hyperbole, or exageration, from those who offer these "seminars". "spiritually grow twenty years in three.." "break through your inner turmoil and barriers in three short days.." Most people have barriers, and for GOOD REASON. Generally speaking, a PSYCHIATRIST, and a good one at that, can't "fix" you in two or three days.. or a psychologist.. or a medical doctor. there are no magic pills. Some people may get a good feeling out of it.. there is always the placebo effect. I think fast results are like fast weight loss.. it's not good, and the problem usually comes back.

Good words. I would only add, "see what it did to your neighbor, first", and "don't be gullible". and "if they demand that you sign a hold harmless agreement, run like h*ll".

From Groucho: Yep.. too much. So much fear.. I think he's afraid, afraid to lose. These mog types are addicted, to WINNING. Addicted to being "right", the rest of the world "wrong".. pitiful.

Yeah.. that is the point here I think.. This WAS a public statement, was it not?so was this one: If think he's out of his mind putting these things on a PUBLIC BOARD, considering he KNOWS people come here to debate. Then he refuses to debate. Will he come back? Oh no. He'll leave the debate and argument to his "followers" to defend his "honor". And he calls US cowardly and unloving. Right.. Yeah, I know he did not DIRECTLY post this, but to give it to someone, saying somehow these things "just happen" to end up on the internet- May as well as have done it himself. won't post it, lets someone else do it.. so pitiful. Yep. Just sends an opened message, in the hands of a messenger (don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the messenger :) ) But I take it as an insult.

The one in 89 was really neat. It was a complete eclipse, if I remember correctly. I'll have to put the october one on the calender..

I think that is part of the concept that 95 percent of all men's ills are psychosomatic.. That does tend to fill some groups coffers who offer a more "honorable" solution to depression. Other words, without the stigma of "conventional" (in reality the proper) treatment.

"Blessed" "a marginally happy state of being, resultant from getting one's favorite parking spot, or other similar triviality. Often, 'blessed' entails what one does NOT recieve, 'I gave 20 percent of my paycheck, therefore I will not be a greasespot by midnight'"

They have evidence that primitive people performed brain surgery with bone knifves too. There is some evidence that the patients lived for that matter.. nobody knows how well, or whether they still had all of their "marbles". Somehow, the idea of letting some brute with a loud voice and a bone knife work on my brain to expose my most secret faults does not sound very appealing. No wonder they want a hold harmless paper signed. A psychologist does not need a hold harmless agreement. People who study psychology know we are still in the dark ages of understanding, as far as human thought and behavior is concerned. The momentus guys apparently think they know better. Yep.. go boldly where angels fear to tread.. rip some "crap" out of somebody's head. I'd rather keep the "crap". I'd as soon have the witchdoctor work me over with a bone knife, as trust these characters. It is too convenient to blame the consequences of the "treatment" on the victim (patient). It is still malpractice.