Ham

"come back, it's a kinder, gentler ministry"

Good point. I would add, if you try to take spirit, bottle and sell it, it turns into snake oil.

And there's more.. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/mom_psychtechniq.htm OK. So they are not "christian" as such, but act as PSYCHOLOGISTS and THERAPISTS. Why would one contract their services? 1. They are cheaper. Really? Let's say you save $5,000.00 by going to them instead of a real therapist or counsellor.. let's subtract: The 20,000 you lost in your divorce settlement, after your tore your spouse to shreds during the training.. The additional thousands you incurred fixing psychological problems incurred by the "training".. The respect you lost from the christian community around you, and the cost of that can't even be estimated. 2. They know what they are doing. Sadly, they probably do. 3. They came recommended. I'd feel betrayed.

Just it seems they proclaim liberty, that you're supposed to follow your personal calling, then on the other hand, you're supposed to be "moving the word", etc. etc. The "prophecies" suggest as much: "rise up to the GREATNESS I've called you to be, moving da vord, slaying der debil..." So.. I'm supposed to condemn myself for not "doing enough for God", drop what I'm supposed to be doing, move to Timbuktu, open a new work.. bring "the word" to the world. That is what some of the "more spiritual" of "that" organization suggested here, more than once. Many of the "spiritual" find someone pursuing ANYTHING other than something that resembles twi an an easy target. Any path that has any "worldly" credentials is suspect. I dropped everything once, and went on a mission on the word of a madman. Everything wasn't bad, but you should see where the journey took me.

Should have saved this for a "caption this" thread.. "I can do all nine, all the time"

That's something I had thought, but now it does not make sense- why did he go TO God- with the offerings? In those days, the offerings often were about supposedly how you kept bad things from happening.. If anything, I see fear driving the man TO his religion, not away from it. Just a thought.

Now it all makes sense! It was a self-perpeptuating problem, with a self-perpeptuating cure with a self perpeptuating problem. Introducing more "cure", caused more "problem". More "problem", you need more "cure". Sounds more like a heroin addiction..

well, thanks for the compliment, I think.. :) "The WORD like it hasn't been known since the first century" (except to bullinger, stiles, etc. etc.) "ninety five percent of your questions about the bible will be answered" "first, read what's written. If it is wrong, *I* will tell you.." "I've forgotten more about the holy spirit field than that little fellow will EVER KNOW". "If you do EXACTLY as *I* tell you, you too will manifest the greatness of the power of God.." Pretty exaggerated claims, are they not? I think when I did "exactly" as he said, I only convinced MYSELF that I had the "great power of God".. But besides that, this boasting of being the best thing since the earth cooled- that was part of the marketing. Anybody get close enough, and it puffs itself like a puffer fish.. looks a lot bigger than it really is. The "success" of TWI was largely determined by largeness, putting on a good production, a good show. Wikipedia article about puffer fish

Good point.. Some people have the need to organize just for the sake of organizing though. So you have a morass of an "organization" that's looking for a cause.

no offense taken. Please do not take offense with the following. I'm not angry, or indignant, or bitter. That is not how I feel. I PERSONALLY think they have God in a box. He is going to tell them, "go open a ministry, go start a work, go run a class" no matter WHAT. It's what they've done before, it MUST be RIGHT. After all, they have the "tools", or do they? If they are as sharp as a blunted pair of scissors when it comes to prophecy- sifting through mounds of junk trying to make some meaning out of it.. I honestly think they are looking in the wrong place. Of course it is MY opinion. I often have these prophet wanabes approach, and say, "ya know, God could really use somebody like you.. ever consider..." No thanks. I've found the path HE wants me on. I'm doing what HE wants me to do, and at the current moment, it is NOT running an organization, teaching classes, going on iteneraries.

I dis the proposition based upon what I have seen and heard. But not entirely. In general, I feel that prophecy on DEMAND is a flawed concept. Too many "prophecies" sounded too much like v.p.'s examples in the intermediate class.. I even heard one or two "I hollered, and I hollered, and I hollered..." No kidding.. I don't dis prophecy IN GENERAL, but there have been too many pretenders. Where do YOU draw the line?

And to you who think that enough is enough here, I only say.. Save your money. Why pay good money to beat an innocent pillow, when we have a perfectly suitable dead horse HERE..

We have studied a little bit about the senses in psychology.. One of the newer things they have been putting in textbooks is that we indeed do have a sixth sense. Not ESP.. it's related to hearing and they call it kinesthesis. Apparently it is related with hearing and balance. It is thought that some people who have extreme fear and panic associated with heights because the "messages" they get via kinesthesis are mixed up. So the fear or panic is not logically unreasonable, as I previously thought. So the fear is not due to some deep seated emothional problem, or secret sin, or anything like that.

"WE, THE BOARD AND LEGAL REPRESENTATIVES OF STFI/MOMENUS/LIFESPRING OR MISCELLANEOUS PILLOW BEATERS OFFICIALLY RELINQUISH ANY LEGAL CLAIM, REAL OR IMAGINED, PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE, TO LEGALLY ACCOST HAM, OR SEEK LEGAL REMEDY FROM HIM, OR ANY OF HIS AGENTS, FOR ANY ACTS OF WRONGDOING, BY OMISSION OR COMISSION, ACCIDENTAL OR MALICIOUS, OR OTHERWISE. SUCH ACTS SHALL INCLUDE, BUT NOT BE LIMITED TO: BLUGEONING, REMOVAL OF TEETH AND/OR HAIR, TEARING OF CLOTHES, BITING, LOOTING, COMMITING MAYHEM WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE, STRANGULATION, SHOOTING, BRAIN SURGERY WITH A DULL BONE KNIFE, OR BAD HUMOR. WE FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS "TRAINING" IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY, AND DO NOT EXPECT ANY RESULTS, OTHER THAN THOSE LISTED ABOVE. -------------------------------------- --------------------- Authorized Signature Date Now I'll go to church with you..

I dunno.. the last year or so I have had a recurring thought- the day of organizations is past. At least unless they can justify their existence. Carrying the doctrine of pfal to the next generation, doesn't qualify to me, personally. Enough doing it, how many offsprings ARE there, and some have proven to be dismal failures.. I wouldn't want to start another cult. Now a wine tasting club, that might be the thing.. smile and pass the Merlot.. I thought it interesting that someone here found some merit in a local mega-church. There's so much "available" out there, why re-invent the wheel?

More from Bill Barton: So.. you pay your money, buy your pillow, show up for the "meeting". Ah, a mere formality, sign the little waiver AFTER PAYING FOR THE CLASS, OR YOU LOSE YOUR MONEY AND ARE ESCORTED OUT OF THE BUILDING. Unless you pull three nice crisp 100 dollar bills out on the spot.. I bet they didn't take checks.. "well, everybody else is doing it, professional trainers, etc. etc.." but they are NOT professional. Admitted as such (see previous post). I think that is the only way that they could force a signature. If it was up front before you ponied up the money, people would be rather suspicious, and would not sign. Yeah, I'd sign, if they signed one holding me harmless from what I would do to THEM. Then I'd get my money back.

Welcome Kerke! I think that pretty much defines "enjoying life" around here, well, for me. I strive to take heed to these words of "exhortation and comfort" Some of us just wish we did twenty years ago.

If he was telling you, put the desire there, that is one thing. If it is what somebody thinks THEY want to do, it may be a very different matter. A lot of people leaving der vey thought that it was the lord's will that they continue the path that they were on. I think that is a little presumptuous.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm More from the same: I haven't heard any rebuttal- I can only assume that this is typical of the momentus "experience", and J.L. and crew did "participate" in these early days the story here describes. Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

Here are a few quotations of the hold harmless agreement http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_unethicalharmless.htm Theoretically, they could beat you to a bloody pulp, and you have no recourse, if a judge and jury would hold the agreement valid. "standard of care"- no professional standard. Doesn't sound like a "church" I would want to have anything to do with.

"wasted resources" "money spent on vacations, parties, turkey for a thanksgiving meal that you won't be in town for, in short, spent money on anything except for der ministry that taught you der verd"

We were even taught what they were SUPPOSED to sound like.. exhortation, comfort.. boldly.. "prophecies may contain sections of scripture.." "always in alignment with the word of God (vey doctrine).." I haven't heard the latest "manifestations", but at der vey I would imagine they are abundantly peppered with "Da Household" and "prevailing". They wouldn't want to ask me to give a "prophecy" anymore.. "get off your sorry *ss, shed your farking religious veneer, and DO something. Do something for YOURSELF, go to school, get some credentials other that the rubber stamping and posturing you gain from your organization. And then MAYBE you can help somebody else, without causing too much damage. And for God's sake, quit telling people to beat pillows and scream 'mommy mommy mommy'..." OK you biblical scholars, try to find something between Genesis and Revelation that THAT contradicts..

I dunno.. the old philosophy of "fake it till you make it" of the late 60's may work for a lot of things, but not prophecy. "grow as you go.." "prophecy is always guaranteed".. I remember "practice sessions". Person has to presume to speak in the Lord's name, until he gets sufficient experience to be entrusted to do the "real job".. Makes no sense to me.

Maybe a lot. :)

I have seen the most awful, totally off the mark "prophecies" uttered with the "boldness of da Lord".. spoken with enough "power" to curl your hair, but they couldn't have been more ineffective, bland.. "ahh loves ya, mah people..." gotta be kidding..