Ham

Official Website: http://www.loons.com/ Lance Parrish is the manager.

I don't know if I would characterize it as losing trust in God, with the failures of these institutions, as such. I think a lot of us found God AFTER we left, or were unceremoniously booted out. or the organization just plain failed. Perhaps some lost a trust in what they thought to be God- a God that could only be experienced or understood by examining the bible under a microscope, and cutting very carefully along the dotted line with a rather sharp razor blade. Only those "qualified" could really do it properly.. And the rest of the sheep generally were not aware that they were being served mutton. I think the REAL losers are the ones that know it's mutton, and just don't care.

I'm probably a little Irish.. anybody wearing green around here?

If you haven't for a while. Graphics change here once in a while..

I had a political science professor that looked at the women, said, "ya know who the majority is in this country? Why don't you just take over.."

Yep. Like someone else said, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..

:)

A three day seminar. Just three days.. What in God's name can you do to people in three days, to force such a change.. My personal observation- only three categories of people I've observed that have come out of that thing. 1. Moderately damaged. Gone off the deep end or attempt suicide, end up in an institution for awhile. These became the program's worst critics. 2. Mildly damaged. They are just quiet about it, and the experiences, and won't really speak out against it for one reason or another. Rare instances, may gave gotten a little good along with all the nonsense. These are the guys who say they may have gotten something, but CAN'T RECOMMEND IT. 3. SEVERELY DAMAGED. These I think are the worst. They are the self-appointed self-help "gurus", who espoused the training in the program like it was the Word of God. They recommend and push the program, despite the fact that the recruit may not "be all there" when they come out. Egotistical, arrogant- loudmouthed behavior only worse after the program than before. It is said you have to be a loud, overbearing, egotistical SOB to be the one to "live" in the lifeboat ordeal.

I am not among those who question or deny Jesus's qualifications. I DO have an issue with corrupt MEN however. People have been made a commodity of, and have been traded from "ministry" to "ministry". People have been so conditioned to cut themselves off from the rest of the body- the mere mention of the word "trinity" in a church causes almost literal pain for some folks. Sorry, can't go there.. possessed ya know.. I think it is a Pavlovian response. Ring the bell, shock the dog. Ring the bell, shock the dog. After a while, just ring the bell, and the dog will still jump without the shock. Qualified, alright.. right out of a high school psychology textbook.

One more thing. Why is it- someone who claims to be an engineer, and has only a B.A. in HISTORY.. or a man who claims to have a cure for a horrible disease, claims he came up with it independantly, and it is a hoax.. we unabashadly don them with the title "fraud". But take the same guy, throw some holy water, or bible verses on his "endeavor", and it is practically automatically above reproach and suspicion in the minds of some. Why? What's the difference? I guess it is the "loving" thing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or is it?

Honestly- I've NEVER read a gospel account where Jesus instructed people to beat pillows, screaming "mommy mommy mommy" Never. Paul or Peter never did either. Only pillow I even know of in the new testament was the one Jesus slept on in the back of the boat.. No seminars to make people more aggressive.. No practice sessions of "real" life, throwing people out of a lifeboat.. No "prophetic counciels" sorting through piles of supposed "prophecies" of ugliness.. and using them to defame and discredit other "brethen".. to "protect the MINISTRY".. what are people thinking?

It's your opinion, but I wouldn't compare the false prophecies, counter false prophecies of J.L. M.G. et al, with their despicable treatment of the brethren to the actions and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. A wolf by any other name is still a wolf. Sorry I won't salivate. The bell doesn't work anymore. I found my brain, and it still works. And don't say Jesus didn't have qualifications. "This is my beloved son, hear ye HIM".

I think that may be the whole point, rascal. Lazy. For some, there is a choice, hard work and study, or easy money. And some of these jokers, to get them to even consider honest work, is near impossible. Why? I think it's the same thing I heard Ross Perot say about the plight of so many sixteen year old crack dealers- they just can't make the same kind of living working at McDonalds. And school is too hard for them, so they say. No instant gratification the honest way. You're not gonna persuade them otherwise with small talk; the money is just too easy. It doesn't take much skill, effort, education or training to be a thug. I know that good people can freelance their way into doing something godly, AS A PROFESSION, AS A JOB, praise God for them, but I think they are the exception. I think it is way to easy to throw "holy water" on it, and call it a "ministry" or such, claim that they have the power, and demand a following. It's instant gratification. Some offshoots already had it made. They found a properly conditioned, otherwise unocupied bunch of people that left the vey, or kicked out, just looking for something to do. Ring the right bell, use the right catch-phrases, "here boy, comere, it's da word, da word.." and people come running, salivating. I don't know if that was what they had in mind, but that was the effect, nonetheless. People are soooo afraid to let go of some of these groups.. I was too, but I eventually learned how to feed myself. And it isn't really all so bad.

Should have left it buried under the fountain..

Yeah, it's like CES was the head of TWI in cryostasis.. somebody ignored the warning label and thawed it out..

"Blame the devil" I think it's kinda like watching a wolf ripping through the same flock, time and time again.. the devil sits back, laughing.. "have at it boy, I'll keep taking the heat.."

I used to think this too. But when the SAME kind of people, kept doing the SAME kind of evil and abuse, where is one to draw the line.. the devil makes too easy a scapegoat, in my opinion. It's too easy to crush God's people with callous disregard, and simply say "just forgive, the devil made me do it, besides, my "package" is the greatest, keep the money coming.." I think the "blame the devil" concept is often used to enable the abuser, to abuse again, and again, and again..

I think you are confusing forgiveness, and common sense. According to Mark Twain, a cat burned sitting on a hot stove, will not sit on it again. You can yell at the cat, telling it how evil it is, how unloving it is to exclude the hot stove from full sharing in its life. But despite passionate pleas for love and forgiveness, and to let go of its "negative" painful "baggage" in its memory, it just won't listen. Oh, the pain... So, ignoring the fact that those who supposedly have "da power" are living a broken life, not unlike the rest of us, have the same bodily functions, and put their pants on the same way in the morning, despite the claims, promises, and innuendo otherwise, let's just put down our "differences", and set upon the stove once again..

What was even worse was when loy sent out BARELY older than pimple-faced teenagers to confront godly people that were a mere three or four times their age. Limb Coordinator here was one of these unexperienced, unqualified and by a reasonable person's observation, displayed the intellect of less than a fifth grade education. But, boy could he confront, and mark and avoid.. loy must have been proud.

Might be right Socks. Next year, might be another self "help" seminar, and they'll be standing awe-struck in the shadow of a few great flunkys, yet one more time, "you just HAFTA try this one.." At least we know their stand on momentus, from statements of some of their membership. Maybe that's enough here. God have mercy on them.. one "fix" after another. To me it looks worse than a heroin addiction.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/634.html There are several other similar incidents of suicide. When the server for the other website I found gets straightened out, I'll post the other documented sources. So much for myth and "speculation".

I don't think so. I think the only ones purged were those who were merely suspect, and refused to agree with the inquisitor, or those who caved in under confrontation and quietly left. Either case, I don't think they actually were homosexual. loy couldn't recognize a homo if there was one right next to him.. Donna and Rosalie are alleged to have had a "fling" or two, by reliable witness. The story is probably in the archives here somewhere..

Yep, I know that feeling- the "man" excitedly waving his arms around, shouting.. I don't know it was good training- maybe somebody just put a tack on his chair.

From Bramble, on another thread: I think this has relevance on THIS discussion, as well. The more aggressive, the better, or so they thought. I would only add, reckless. Careless with PEOPLE. I think qualifications and experience only stood in the way.

Well, you can ask.. but I think that's fairly valid, Pond. Look at the response people got about the prophecy thingy- "READ MY BOOK". One thing your thought suggests to me.. with all of the "prophecies", "counter-prophecies", blaming, maneuvering.. the past middle age wolves have no place left to go. They lack the stamina and charisma to really work up a following anymore. So what do they do? They turn on themselves. I'm glad I'm not directly in the middle of all this. I feel sad for those who are. Apparently there is no "honor among thieves", or thugs for that matter, anymore..