Ham

But why is it, that the label "spirit possession" is so hopeful to the guy up front with the microphone, simplifiying life, claiming that a few properly spoken words, renewing of the mind, and the wave of the magic wand is all one needs to solve these kind of problems in life? Sure, they are very hopeful. Have the quick and easy fix.. I wonder if these people have considered that most of the people who they deem afflicted with evil spirits have already tried that, and more? "out in the name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.." "are you out of your mind? no mr. fletcher in here.." "gotta be. You've got problems, BESIDES, GOD TOLD ME..." If I was sick, and was on the receiving end of something like this, I just might find it offensive too. Maybe the people running around casting out spirits that aren't there need the meds too..

I dunno.. if people really want something like this, why not join the Marines? Survive boot camp, stick it out, and you may actually make a good living with it.. get a few benefits..

Thanks for the contribution Tzaia. I think maybe that's what I see here- the arrrogance. The "I'm so special, I can HANDLE it" attitude that SOME only previously could get in way corps training. To the best of my knowledge, CES has had no corps training.. until momentus. So "economical", do what der vey took three years to do, in three days.. It seems that either people love it, are fairly indifferent, or utterly despise it. I looked on the mother organizations website. They claim they did some kind of "independant" investigation of the effects of their training.. then they quickly go to bar charts showing the supposed satisfaction rating of those who took the course. Ninety five percent claimed it was a good deal. Five percent who took it claimed they felt "attacked" by the staff.. two percent said they felt attacked by FELLOW STUDENTS. HARDLY independant, or partial data, in my opinion. I could take a group of one hundred people, and in three days, with proper pavlovian "conditioning", have 95 percent of them enthusiastically endorse my product. Anywhere from five to seven percent of the people who took the "seminar" are damaged, immediately, by their own admission. Unless you can define "I felt I was attacked" otherwise. I would say, let's see what it does in the long term, to a person's personality, to a business, to a marriage, to a MINISTRY.

And they perpeptuated the myth, for over thirty years. The same guy who said it didn't work "free" also claimed it didn't work with "love". They've perpeptuated that myth as well..

I think a lot of us have considered just that. :)

".. that isn't a repository of knowledge at the end of the rainbow, either, fella.."

"We've left TWI with the GOLD.." I dunno how victorious somebody can feel after digging through twi's outhouse.. Nose plugs might help.

I dunno.. I think it was kinda like what Clinton did. It makes sense in a warped sort of way- leave a big enough trail of dead bodies, so to speak, that the media and congress choke themselves in the ensuing feeding frenzy.. of course you don't have time to pause or look back Give them enough whoppers, and argue over every fine point. "I did NOT have sex with this woman.." "define sex". Maybe loy and crew took a few lessons here. Only thing though- a lot of people agreed with the strange and ridiculous, including me at one time. By the time you're on to something, and have to sort through so much a pile of "crap", you're better off just burying it and starting over..

I would phrase the question "why do they stay married". The organization.. peer pressure.. viewing divorce as a failure, and I can't argue that it isn't.. The kids. Sometimes people "grow up" and find that they really do like their spouse.. others don't. The kids grow older, move off on their own (hopefully) :) Thirty years later, the spouse is often not the same person you think you married. "You're not the man I married.." No joke.. been twenty, thirty years.. people do tend to change.

How to deal with notoriously unfit ministers, let me count the ways.. boiling in oil tar and feathering.. a two week marathon session of momentus "training", not even a bathroom break.. but seeing that we are supposedly a society under the rule of law, I think if they have committed criminal acts, they should pay in terms of criminal penalties. Sadly, in may cases, this is just not enough.

Only confirms what I have thought. Work for one of these groups? Better not complain to "God".

I don't know about the book, but in the class vp kinda muttered under his breath that "MANY were delivered". Then he says he was given the key to the city. Is there any REAL historical documentation to verify this? I think vp would have claimed he had a meeting with Ghandi if it served his own interests..

"may" be.. I wonder how many spirits they now "may" see under a rock.. I really would be sad to see them go down that path. casting out "devils" that are not there to begin with probably won't give the "victim" a very good impression, to say the least.

How many qualifications does it take to do this: Maybe they think it is "group therapy". Perfect job for the guy voted "most likely to be a thug".

I guess death isn't "welcome" at der vey..

In veyspeak, I think it used to mean a man with a ministry of an apostle, prophet.. etc. It was even on the corps logo, I think, at one time. They did take that off if memory serves correctly. Then "a man with a ministry" became "a thug with a big stick.." It could be that was the original meaning, however. I've seen some pretty brutal men "with a ministry", even in the old days.

Good point Groucho.. I think the strings you speak of are really chains.. "nobody has the package we've got.." (no kidding..) and people believe this. That nobody else has quite the handle on life an godliness that the organization has. I think this is a very real fear for people. That the demise of the "ministry" spells out the destruction of the "integrity of da WORD", whichi is "always at stake".. that God's people won't have anyplace else to go, anything else to do.. that they might actually have to COMPROMISE and get along with a few christians with different beliefs if they want to fellowship elsewhere.. I think it is a step that is very frightening for some.. it was for me, leaving the "security blanket" of der vey. I can't say ALL of ces's constituents, but I think that a LOT of them, NEVER LEFT THE WAY. Just imported it from New Knoxville to Indiana. Destruction of the organization is a very real possibility. Who would lose? Honestly, I think nobody. The mog/mogettes would be forced out into the "real world", which in all likelihood, they haven't really seen or had to deal with for over twenty years.. The constituency, after suffering some withdrawl, would find there is a lot more out here than what they really think, and find their induced fears are ungrounded.

Can two "believers" make a "marriage" work, by "renewing" of the mind? Maybe- look at Rosie and Donna.. I don't know if I would want to see the offspring however, with that degree of imbreeding..

No kidding. When I left the "ministry", they tried to roll out the red carpet for my kids. Soooooooooo nice, so polite. Unsuccessful though, kids saw what they did to people before they changed their skins. In the evolution of cults, they have marked themselves for extinction, mainly because they refuse to change. Kids get smarter, and it takes a smarter, bigger and better cult to attract a young following. Trying on different colors of sheep skins doesn't work so well. "well, if I try on a cute pink skin, maybe they'll come.." Same old wolves, same old tricks.

Yeah. I think what we are dealing with is the ego of man here.. Really. God is a LOT bigger than a little organization somewhere, in the middle of Indiana, or in a corn field in Ohio.. The organization in itself, in the large scheme of things, is not really THAT important. Without it, the bible will be there tomorrow, the sun will rise- chickens will crow.. dogs will bark.. kids will play.. in short, the world will not just stop in a moment of sillence, a tear in it's eye.. At the end of the day, there will still be a God.. without the help, or even hinderance for that matter, from an ORGANIZATION. The world isn't going to fall into utter darkness at it's demise. I think priorities are all in the wrong place. Why be afraid?

I'm sure they are doing SOMETHING, quietly, behind closed doors. So much for "living my life as an open book.." As a follower, I wouldn't feel very comfortable, waiting for the future of MY "ministry" being decided in this fashion. Especially being decided by the same people who brought it to this state. I think people live under the illusion that the future of God's word is at stake here. There are no "losers", at least as the flock is concerned, unless you choose. There really is a life outside of that organization.

It's pretty ironic, they claim to be bound by the word of God, and in the end, they are bound by the word of the lawyers. Kinda pathetic.

from http://www.cephasministry.com/momentus_3.html Sounds like "lockbox" to me.. Sounds like the vey corps "training", at least in later years. If this is NOT what happens, I'd like to hear from a "participant". Oh, forgot, you swore an oath not to reveal.. So much for "it's a nice program, but not for everybody.." In my own opinion, if somebody put on an application for training and experience momentus, or lifespring, or one of the clones, I WOULD NOT HIRE THEM. Look what "they" did to CES.. You have a group that has taken this little gem of a seminar, banded together, and it is documented they badgered people to take it also. So superior, so.. elite, so much "better"- and they have the keys to the joint. My opinion- the only way you guys are REALLY gonna fix that place is to clean house, top down.. don't know if that can happen, can't vote at least three of them out.. same as der vey.. I don't think a few "reforms" over a couple of issues or grievances will even come close to what needs to be done. I would like to be proven wrong..

"I think I see spit flying" Gruesome. Unsanitary.. I hope he flossed..

http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark87.html Sound like one of loy's abusive tirades? Nope. This is how they do business in one of the sister organizations of momentus. Maybe loy should apply for the position. Could claim he has plenty of experience.. more: And people pay for it? well, I did too at one time. Sounds like a session or two in a couple of classes I paid for in der vey. I had a few "fellowship" meetings like this.. Why in God's name, would ANYBODY want to go back to something like this.. Must satisfy some inner need. I really think people have developed a need for self induced pain.