Ham

except when they had to sleep their way up the ladder.. and it did happen.Happened in a "Christian" "ministry". A corporate structure that allows such practices is corrupt. I didn't think you were. It just kind of made sense to me with some things I saw.. I saw some men get worse and worse. No "results", more abuse. Less "results", even more abuse and blame..

Real life now, isn't that how it really is? Or do people have a corner on truth that allows them to walk in perfect submission?

That makes some sense. In der vey I think it was the beginning of a long downwrd spiral for some. A lot of times, it was the woman who was attacked as being the cause of lack of results for the most trivial reasons. Really bad things happen.. she was often targeted with blame for causing embarassment or shame. Well, that didn't last long I guess, pretty soon everybody was under the microscope.

or refused to believe what we (I) saw.. Bluegrass without a Banjo? I thought that was bluegrass blasphemy or somehting..

It's amazing how much of his true character he revealed.. and a lot of us didn't really see it..

What I really love about some of the modern "mystics".. The best I've heard of the message.. and sometimes it is rather eloquent: "I would really like a following, but I don't have a friggin clue of what is really going on" :

Yep.. I'm glad my God isn't that small.. I have quite a few doubts.. fears.. even a few worries. At least they belong to me.. but everything isn't me, or is it? :)

Hey, don't lay it on too thick, there's only so much you can do with a rusty sword..

Follow the footsteps of da donna bird, they will surely lead you...

What kind of "woman" indeed.. Friend.. comrade.. confidante.. none of the above..

Probably what loy is asking himself every night..

vic did model himself as a mog like unto Luther.. maybe that's what gave you the idea. Taped his "theses" on the church door.. was it in New Bremen?

I dunno. I would say that it depends on the particular statements. If I said "little green men live inside of the moon" you could be pretty safe saying that this statement had nothing to do with der vey, barring the effect it may or may not have had on me. But if a significant number of followers assert that the U.S. is being taken over in 1976, that the trininty is wrong, that followers are supposed to implicitly obey their leadership, that wives are to be in subjection, that abortion is notsa bad.. you might REASONABLY make an inference that these statements have something to do with der vey..

Oldies, you may be talking to Mo, but how would I explain it.. hmm. If this is the justification for abuse, I would rather throw it away. People are more important than words on a page, especially if we do not understand them correctly, or if they simply don't reflect reality. "see? It's da WORD of GAWD, in black and white.." I've seen people counselled to stay in abusive marriages based upon this black and white definition of marriage. if these really are Paul's words, they don't ring true, at least to me. I think it is far too much power for an individual, to exercise over another. If a person lets go of the concept that it is a perfect word, accurate from Genesis to Revelation.. the problem seems to solve itself.. on the other hand, what about the historical context? The husband WAS the head of the wife in that culture. He OWNED her.. Perhaps it is a little bit of sarcasm. "yeah, you're head, like Christ is head".. Luke 10:44- "he who is chiefest among you, let him be servant of ALL". He didn't exactly boss his way, or pull the strings of his position to become savior. maybe they couldn't change culture. but they could love as the head.. I'm not sure which, or either I believe at this point. If the true interpretation justifies "putting the little woman in her place" by bullying, endlessly quoting and harping on, even with scripture, regarding her as more spiritually suceptible to devils merely because she is female, I would throw it away. Somebody would have to convince me on a practical level otherwise.

hmm. Last person I did this with lost an ear, but don't worry, hold perfectly still. *ham wields rusty sword* "Out There, I knight thee co-ruler of the relm, to smite with chuckles and laughs, as oftenth as thou wishedeth, as long as you both shall live. Say, "I do"." *thud*

Honest to God.. they may not force the women to wear berkas and veils, but these sonsabitches still regard them as chattel.. even justify it with the bible. I wonder how more primitive we can be.

I saw them sit there and just take it.. merely because they had nowhere else to go. it was one of those "surreal" moments in der vey. One guy accused his wife of conversing with devils, simply because I asked HER to pray for me, and not HIM.. bastards just as soon would have given the wife a lobotomy if they could have..

The two or three "men" that I personally knew, that vic directly trained in early corps, more than reflected this. They really thought that a "loose" woman (not morals, but in thought and deed) was practically an invitation to possession, to be ruled over with a rod of iron. I saw a group of women punished in public because one or two offered REASONABLE, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Talk about free will, consent and participation all you want.. these women did not sign on for that kind of abuse. It wasn't part of the "agreement". Mostly, the "agreements" with anybody in der vey, that I knew of, were that all agreements were off. Subject to the wind as it blows, or to whatever the particular color of "truth" was in stock that particular month.

I've seen people narcotized by sufficient brow beating with a bible.. sadly, der vey is not unique in this.

That may be true.. but. is an unwarranted conclusion. I think some tolerated it, put up with it, endured it, perhaps thought there wasn't anything better .. but really believed it? Can't simply say that for everybody. Some were coerced.

And if I may but add: Real men don't look like this.

See? Nothing to be afraid of. Big words come easy..

Not for the faint of heart: What happened when twi ran out of sand..

Did you look at his churches website? Certainly more than chasing twi to the ends of the earth..I saw a few nice honest articles.. "I'm dating a wayfer, what do I do.." http://www.abouttheway.org/ This sounds pretty accurate, compared to what I personally witnessed. Pretty calm wording.. doesn't sound like he's frothing at the mouth or anything.. People in twi DO think differently than "normal" people. I should know.. I was in it, and I'm hardly "normal" But I think he makes a valid point. I think he's done a pretty good job climbing inside the shoes of someone in the organization. I would agree based on my first hand experience, and that of others. Nothing "reactionary" here.. not that I detect. Just that, you wanna marry a wayfer, you're GOING to go to "church", and in twi's case, as a church, it "sucks". The real sad thing, is I remember the vey's habit of thought too.. I'd be terrified to even read something like this.

I don't know if you read that right T-bone. It's colon ization. I was merely suggesting that they were putting their head somewhere else.