Ham

Well, you could put that under "begged and fixed a LOT of things".

sorry friend.. :) I'm not exactly angry any more.. but I think those early experiences did have an effect on me. I could see what this did to these women.. it was kind of like.. I could see right in their souls.. weird. I watched their dream of happiness, just evaporate.. one couple basically newlywed at the time. I was a 19 year old kid.. supposedly these were the "cool guys" to be able to hang around with, live with. my "alter ego" here can outspoken at times, but in real life, I tend to let people run over me. After seeing enough carnage, I'd rather be hurt than see somebody else suffer it. I've been known to drive people up the wall with "niceness". But once, in recent years, I did tell a group of people that they were as stinking dysfunctional as I am. I have an advantage here, at least I know what I am dealing with, in myself. So.. here I am, back doing what I should have been doing when I was nineteen. It has taken YEARS for me to just be what I am.. and not jump through hoops to try to get people to love me. I can only imagine what abuse does, when practiced in the presence of a young child, even verbal abuse, name calling.. it really does effect more people than just "you".

The last I remember, even "Shekinah" is feminine. Illustrious, beautiful..

This is the same guy.. who counselled (i.e. screamed at) a single LADY, who lodged a complaint about some filthy guy in fellowship not keeping his hands off of her, to "just loosen up and get laid".. All I can say.. if a person wants to swallow the magic pill, and wake up back to twi land.. they just might find themselves waking up to a nightmare..

Ah, Mr. Groucho. I emailed them asking information about this very thing. But it was nice.. where/what did he do to get his "doctorate"? We will see what we will see, if and when they reply.. :)

Well.. if you use the peppermint soap on "certain parts" of the body, it does have a unique tingling effect..

Yep. At least some of them. I heard one guy attribute his stuff to "THE teacher".. I almost threw up on the spot.. probably would have validated their beliefs.. thought I was possessed or something..

I idid give enough information that if you were one of the "men" at the meeting, you'd know it was about you.. Don't worry.. I won't reveal names, I'm not THAT underhanded.. Sometimes I wish I was..

I think this is a valid option.. maybe not tomatos as such.. but maybe something like "the believer's veto rights to deal with the ridiculous". the guy up front getting too pushy, to authoritarian? I think you need a way to deal with nonsense in no uncertain terms.. I've pulled it out a time two... they look like they don't know what hit them..

Oh, this was a planning meeting of sorts. Supposedly informal.. low key.. This was a public meeting. SOB doing damge control and spin after the wife "copped out".

well.. let's add : "and both parties shall use the 'material' limited to claims that they have exclusive access, ownership, and origination of the truth, as long as they make no mention of the other party, originating said material or not.." OK.. I bring da nuts, you bring the ostrich sandwiches..

"so, why didn't you just get up and walk off if it was so bad.." I would have, but I had nowhere to go.. the women didn't either, except the one who went home to mom..

The guy who ran the fellow laborer program was a nasty, overbearing SOB.. I was not one who saw that particualar side of the individual.. his wife offered REASONABLE, GODLY, RATIONAL suggestions.. "If you don't like it, why don't you just go home to mommy.." was his reply. I would say that was probably the mildest, tamest thing he had to say to her.. he said he told her this in a PUBLIC MEETING. Made her out as immature, couldn't handle the pressure.. only reason he said it- I believe a number of people noticed that she was gone.. Gets pretty bad when you have to smear your own wife in public.. This was in 1975. Yep.. a "prophet" is a tough man to live with..

I was at a meeting sometime in 1976. I saw honest, loving women offer (God forbid) loving, caring, suggestions. Three men at a meeting, one was the limb leader.. at his cue shouted, "woman, shut the f*** up" incredulous, the women say, "what did you just say.." or something to that effect.. on cue, they say again, "woman, shut the f** up" and all three flicked burning cigarettes in the wives hair.. It went on cue so EXACTLY, I would say that these bastards rehearsed previously how to "handle" their women. one of the couples were "graduates" of the Fellow Laborer's program. And advanced class grads. one of the guys was a flunky off of the wow program, a new advanced class grad, with new wife. the third was (I think) a fifth corps grad, along with wife. I really think that if I were not in the room, things would have gotten even uglier. These women did not exactly initiate the abuse. It was one of those "surreal" moments in der vey.. Ah.. take me back to the "good old days.." The limb guy was trained and ordained by the vicster himself..

That would be a good start.. but if they gave up the legalism, it wouldn't be THE way, would it? :)

I think the "problem" is not with the world as such, but with twi. Heck, the world would probably say "so what.." "just another group of sycophantic losers who can't live up to what they preach. Oh well.." But within the walls of Zion, "that'" kind of lifestyle has been harped on, condemned, labeled possessed.. even the mere RESEMBLANCE of it. They've labeled some people homo, just beacause the poor guy would rather stay home and do something with the kids instead of hunting bear, fishing, or doing something more "manly" . Naw.. she's got what she wants. Can't afford to stir the pot.. but IF she really IS.. I wonder how she could possibly live with herself.

Probably have to recite the Secret Squirrel security code to get in I'd imagine..

Actually, I did. :) I remember seeing a bottle of Dr. Bronner's soap in almost every believer's bathroom in the 1970's.

"Golden child" hmm. Maybe vic admired her, perhaps she could "play" like the "big boys".. well, history has born that out, anyway..

based on the facts.. I think a *reasonable* person would come to the conclusion that they are a twisted couple of sorts.. Rosie the "enabler" did manage to loosen loy's mog like grip from twi and his wife, by supplying him with what he wanted.. either by accident or deliberate design.. Let him stay busy with several "one time affairs" and extra-curricular "activities".. turn a blind eye. buddied up with his wife.. any POSSIBLE intent on her part can't be exactly "noble". In my opinion.

"not normal people he's slandering.." thank you George.. Captain, I suppose one could argue the subtle differences between mugging and armed robbery.. I think they tarnished their own reputation to the extent that if you call them ANYTHING, it's an improvement.. It is a telling fact that when loy was "removed" from his position and residence at twi, donna stayed behind with ole rosie.. as.. "administrative assistant". Her own, conscious choice.. she chose a position with "rosie" over accompanying HER OWN HUSBAND. Looking at it from rosie's point of view.. at a time when a wife and family was unceremoniously put in a U-haul truck to accompany the husband and father when he was fired, as an almost standard operating procedure at der vey.. rosie makes an EXCEPTION for donna??? One must ask "why".. "oh, I felt sorry for her.." Oh. She didn't feel sorry for anyone else? Ra*lp D. knew what was going on between the two.. At least one person claims to have caught them in the "dirty deed".. The "couple" went on vacations together.. rented a room with onlyone bed.. ASSUMING that homosexuality is a sin, and as such despicable.. if they are not, they certainly have not "abstained from all appearance of evil". What I wonder.. if it really IS slander.. why no lawsuits? Perhaps they are waiting for the witnesses to die off, or to get old enough to forget what happened... I think they are intelligent enough to know that if they chose to stir this particular pot, it would REALLY be the end of twi.. the rest of the followers would either leave or run them out of town on a rail.

Hmm. Maybe they pulled in the welcome mat..

Note: I am not indiscriminately bashing offshoots here, or encouraging other posters to do the same. I did leave one option to politely do so if one wishes though.. :) But I have actually witnessed some people choose option one. It was like they woke back up in twig somewhere..

well.. got one vote! If that's all I get, I guess it represents the general consensus here..

As many as you can dream up, I'm sure.. we could even have "stretched" coffee in used styrofoam cups if we wanted..