Ham

maybe he's playing the "devil's" advocate.

"call me" he says.. the guy who was at one time in charge of a program, practically "training" people how to sell ice makers to penguins in the antarctic.. CALL ME?? "now ham, we oughter agree on the big T truth.. nothings broken. You've got all the ice you ever could use in one lifetime, do you not?" You've gotta be kidding..

I really think they were looking for people who could sell solar powered icemakers in the heart of Antarctica.. "field support" issues are pretty easy after the sale though.. "whadly mean it doesn't work?? You have all the ice you could ever want.."

I can understand a LITTLE pressure, if your day job demands that you sell widgets to the general public, for a fair profit.. but, to be required to SELL to merely have the "priviledge" to belong to and contribute financially to a CHURH? Before a person says, "nobody ever demanded it of ME..", I would think that perhaps it is maybe because they didn't have to. Maybe the person just kept producing, kept bringing friends, coworkers, etc.. to the little meetings. loy labeled people who couldn't "produce" as those harboring evil, "unproductive evil" dross.. possessed. Not "going anywhere" in "gawd's" ministry. I couldn't sell loy's class if my life depended on it.. and I wasn't "in" very much longer past that. "we KNOW something is wrong with you, spill your guts.." looking back now, what was wrong, I could not sell an unsellable product.

What I wonder is.. if it was so great, why for the most part did pfal require extraordinary methods to sell it? if it really sold itself, vic shoulda just dropped a sample on Times Square, and merely waited for the world to beat a path to his door. Behind the scenes, in more than one "coordinator's" meetings, campaigns were scheduled.. witnessing "techniques" were finely honed.. "follow up" procedures were strictly adhered to.. classes were PLANNED. Not that I think planning was such a bad thing.. but see what happens when the branch fails to produce a couple of classes. Not too pleasant when all who shows up to a "public explanation" are grads from long ago. then there's a whole "leadership program".. basically designed to SELL the class, SELL the ministry. More motivation techniques, more "tricks of the trade". no pressure there. Go lightbearers.. fail to produce a class? No problem.. just jump off a bridge on the way back to campus. OH.. the guys who ran a lot of that kind of training, some started their own brand of der vey, didn't they..

seems these questions DWBH ask have little to do with jl's personal life..

What I wonder though.. does it look like a retirement community, like der vey, where the average follower looks like they're over sixty?

If I were JL I'd have a few questions.. How is it, a CLOSE FRIEND, a BROTHER.. someone as "comitted" to the "written standard", or at least once was, as much as myself, be ENRAGED to the point of taking action against me, a "forbidden" action, and distasteful, embarrasing as "taking a BROTHER to the law"? I would be at least a little concerned.. wasn't there SOMEBODY in the joint "wise" enough to go to in order to help come to some kind of agreement? Apparently not, providing one actually looked. Seems to me, the "written standard" says you're better off being "ripped off" or "extorted from".. I'd ask myself the question.. "why am I (we) being so arrogant, as to not ask the guy what it would take to make it right." I'd ask.. "why is MY lack of action and communication still holding MY organization up for accountbility and ridicule." "why do I continue to be embroiled in a web of scandal, political maneuvering, and secrecy." Is it worth it? Personally.. if I were in the little momentus lifeboat thingy.. I'd jump out. The politicking and maneuvering would drive me nutso..

I dunno. I don't think it's exactly a party here.. It's gone from contempt, to disgust, to disappointment, to even loving exhortations.. the last WE knew, one half of the "body" was locked in a death struggle with the other half.. and we get a letter inviting us to be "doctored" by JL, by joining him in his sickness.. to the best we know, the "body" is not talking, moving, or even breathing.. next I think we will be playing funeral dirges for ces.. I don't know about JL.. but if I were to watch the work that took a lifetime of effort go down the crapper, it would be at least a little mentally "challenging". Instead of writing a letter pontificating his viewpoints, that he "somehow" knew would end up here.. he really should have just asked for help. Instead.. "we KNOW prophecy, read my book.. buy it a www.ces.org" I would have questions.. why is my organization falling apart.. how did the practice of MY doctrine result in a power struggle and death match.. brother against brother, in the courts.. how did MY doctrines and practice alienate my life partner.. and by God's and her love and grace, he has her back.. but no.. it's "the debil" or "the people" that's the cause of all of this.. we gotta be "right".. John.. just keep holding that thought..

Yeah.. bait though.. for whom? I don't think for the "average" follower.. I for one wouldn't have the stamina, or the inclination to try to build up another organization. Probably shaking the tree to get a few "main players" into a back room somewhere to get pistol whipped with arguments about "agreeing on the big T truth.." quote a few verses out of Phillipians or something.. or Corinthians.. "now gawd says we oughter not to be divided or nuttin.." "now, anything else I can do for you?"

technically, that is not a response. Unless you are JL himself. He makes a statement.. people respond, ask questions.. then he.. what? Hides behind a previous claim that he will refuse to respond in a public forum? I think JL wouldn't be any more warm about the idea of having some kind of ces town hall meeting with about 150 of us.. in person. No shuffling off of the major players into little back rooms to try to control the damage.. You'd think he'd feel safer and more secure on a public forum like this.. maybe he just wants to retire.. maybe it just doesn't make any difference to him that he's leaving his "legacy" in shambles.. maybe he's afraid to take an honest look at it.. without some kinda "stick with the big T truth" spin.. too "negative"..

Well.. I think the day of the microdot may be past.. sometimes I wish I could revisit those days.. but I can look into the light anytime I wish. But.. "I am rich, I have need of nothing" maybe for Christmas but we need each other.. people are starved, and they don't have a clue why sometimes...

Oooh, oooh.. it feels soooo good..

If it makes any difference.. I think we came into this existence.. with the possibility of "failure". yeah.. the possibility that if we toss the dice, that we lose.. even "eternally". "God" can't lose.. It's a gift.. that he does not have..

I have learned something from mathematicians.. they are willing to gamble the whole game.. :) that's why I love Kesey.. he echoed so many of the same thoughts. How many times does a person really have to "go through the door.."

fire has a few "redemptive" factors to it.. it does tend to burn away so much of the "dross" of life.. :) I dunno.. it's all gonna burn anyway.. what's the big deal..

In principle, it's been around a whole lot longer..

I hope my lady friend doesn't see this..

I remember that movie.. and it was at a drive in theater! My brother's friend absolutely devoured a pizza with the hottest items known to man.. along with anchovies and who knows what else.. then he chugged down about two quarts of beer.. I was probably 14. They somehow got me in an R movie.. but it was raining, and raining.. and the poor guy with a pizza and two quarts of beer was busy with dry heaves just outside the car.. it was a "memorable" night, but not because of the movie.. Oh. Trivia buffs.. who was "daddy" in the movie?

I dunno.. one day, I walked out of "twig", and the next thing I knew, *poof*. Actually, if I HAVE to be something.. I'd rather be something small.. besides, can't have people take me too seriously.. at the end of the day, it's just the word of a squirrel..

I don't think he'd get the REAL hard questions like "Why does the Porridge Bird lay its egg in the air?" "Noooooo..."

ALMOST everyone I know who HAS, have walked away with glassy eyes. Some of them practically can't remember what real issued they went to him on.. "call me, I'll COUNSEL you.." Honestly, I think people are more than a little tired of little "need to know" stuff in damage control "sessions". I won't go back to one. "call me, I'll HELP you.." ??? No thanks, you helped your "ministry" enough as it is already.. Ya know.. this little situation here isn't like a gang of bullies, trying to get some poor guy with taped eyeglasses to meet them in the playground after school.. Maybe John can't get real, because he isn't real.. that is an option here.. It's like a scene out of Firesign Theater.. the guy trying to get a few answers out of the "president".. "hey man, he broke the PRESIDENT"

Seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

Yeah.. threats of eminent possession.. I think that was one of the things that helped me loosen the grip.. I saw preachers in other demoninations threaten the flock, not with possession.. but dangers of hayull fire.. if they didn't accept the authority "gawd" and "the word" gave him.. with pretty close to the same demeanor, spittle flying out into the front row.. I thought, how.. ignorant. Then I thought again.. hmm. how ignorant..

And then there was the "opportunity" to rub elbows with the chief debil slayer himself. Anybody who can slay every use and usage of the greek word "spoudazo" or "pneuma hagion".. well, that's just what does for KICKS.. Just wait till he gets warmed up..