Ham

That does presuppose that the said person even has or had a heart, to begin with.Same could be said for a conscience, for that matter. But then again.. maybe the old guy was bipolar. The nicest, most tranquil person on the face of the earth, one moment. Then a raging bug-eyed monster the next. I could see how someone could mistake the "down swings" with some kinda peace or something.. and the manic episodes.. "sheesh. he's valiant for da truth.." "man, what a teaching.." I think we were taught not to think. If one can't understand or consider what one considers "negative" maybe one cannot make a sound decision regarding it.. Perhaps these kind of dicsussions are just too painful for some people, and they'd rather shut it out.. wake up in twig somewhere in 1972..

Of course, eighty six percent of those whom actually went through the training won't recommend it to a dead dog..

Happy Birthday! Nice you could share it with us..

Now it looks like roughly three out of four would not go back to the same restaurant..

It's the fourth one that "stands out" from the rest. The first three are merely "synoptic" accounts sowy..

I think it's a matter of perspective. Like the three blind guys trying to describe an elephant.. examining the trunk, one says "an elephant is like a snake" the other, examing the legs.. "naw.. it's like a tree.." the other.. I forget. But I think that's what we have here. One says, "gawd, he was a drambuie soaked a**hole.." another: "he was an abusive and demanding sexual pervert" another: "he was a thief and plagiarist" and the other: "He sure was a man of gawwd.." I prefer to look at the big picture. He was a drambuie guzzling, perverted, narcissistic, thieving intellectual pretender who could put on a fair speech. :) It's like the four gospels. You know, one record doesn't give ALL of the details..

I think there was a REAL problem equating fruit of the spirit with "operating da manifestations" as we were taught. I really think "fruit comes by the operation of the manifestations" + "heck, I sit.." does not imply "I have da fruit". I think it was another unwarranted assumption made by the mogster. Just because someone can spew out gibberish that sounds something like Swahili.. doesn't give them a free ticket to sin and expect forgiveness.. "see? I'm a BROTHER(?).." I've heard people speak in tongues.. and it sounded more like peeping and muttering.. yeah, there's an old testament reference I'm alluding to..

The proportions on the last question are pretty significant.. eighteen out of twenty-three would not recommend the product to a friend or neighbor. Usually that's the "last but not least" question.. I'd imagine that's what a manfacturer would be most interested in.

That's even more interesting. How many of us were like that.. the quiet types, hanging around, thinking that was what life was supposed to be all about. It took me a long long time to wake up and take an honest look at what I'd been observing for years, and to take an honest look at what I had become. It can be frightening. Into one's forties, few real developed social skills.. few developed and documentable professional qualifications in anything.. a handful of alienated, though distant relatives, whom I had not seen for over twenty years. the comfort on one side of the caged window isn't worth the price.

umm.. the ones I'm speaking of are still alive.. at least they look that way.. maybe dead inside, who knows.. ya know, it's impossible to "forgive" a dead man.. understand him maybe, why he did what he did.. try to forget- but "forgive"? see.. there is nothing I can personally think of to make the situation "right" between you and him. there is still a chance for the living. At least in this particular life..

well.. "forgive them brother.. take da suffering.." I don't know if you stopped to think.. they don't WANT your or my forgiveness. Probably never will.. ok.. letsa take you up on the kind "exhortation.". Let them come to my door. I won't turn them away, and I'll say, face to face.. "I forgive you for being the lying, scumsucking weasel dirtbags who let down your bretheren and let them get pillaged, sold stolen merchandise, plundered, raped and worse, just to be filled with a piece of bread.." the only thing I'd add: "if I can possibly have anything to do with it, you are not going to do it to anyone else" then again, I dunno. Maybe they committed the "unforgivable".. "naw.. they SPEAK IN TONGUES.." I don't buy the s.i.t. proof and all.. anybody can babble incoherently given the proper motivation. Some can even do it without the right kind of motivation, all by themselves.. :) edited to add "dirtbags". sounded right..

Might want to try Iron Out. They say it is good at removing pesky blood stains.. don't know what it'll do to the rest of the scroll

I dunno.. if one must scrape three layers of blood and guts of the victims off the scroll, it still may still be rather difficult to read.

Then again.. rosie might fit the role of nurse Ratched quite admirably..

Other recent topics got me thinking of this. So much of the twi experience toward the end of my involvement reminds me of kesey's description of the patients in One flew over the Cuckoos' nest. He describes the young acute patients as being nervous, afraid to laugh too hard, afraid that a team of "docs" would try to figure out why they were happy.. really.. that was "us" here. If one was really happy, the branch guy's wife would insist on finding out WHY.. and then there's the Chronics. The culls of the ward.. look at donna, rosie.. some of the others.. they couldn't function in real society if their life depended on it.. even loy- I think he wouldn't have survived unless they kept treating him as an outpatient. donna probably wouldn't last a week.. so they sit, depending on others to feed, clothe, and bath them.. the lawyers probably have free reign.. they know the meal ticket quite well. Just keep litigating.. keep the organization afloat one way or another.. maybe they have some kinda legal conservatorship or something..

I think when a lot of us were "put out on the street".. the vast majority made a few adjustments.. figured out how to fit into society.. build a career.. get an education.. try to build relationships outside of the few one-sided ones where "communication" is defined as "you better listen to me, ah've got da anwers".. perhaps there was some withdraw. But I think most here got through it. Then there's the other part of the group.. the "chronics".. the "culls of the ward".. can't really function without someone feeding them, clothing, bathing them.. can't function without vociferously promoting an organization, i.e., "moving the word"..

perhaps. But eventually, the drugs wear off.. or they should. I think we all were kinda nuts.. perhaps two kinds of "patients" came out of twi: 1. Those who were merely doped up 2. The few they gave a lobotomy. The effect may be he same, just in one case, it doesn't wear off..

If it makes any difference, when I left the ministry, the same could be said of me. It took me a couple of years for the insanity to wear off, and ask the real hard questions..

how much longer they're gonna be a decaff version is up to debate, if "leaders and workers" get sent in among them from somebody's "training" program..

Well, if we are talking a comparison with looney tunes, there might be more than a remote connection to "about da way"..

Yeah.. some "leaders and workers" they produced. Especially toward the end of my years in der ministry, the leaders didn't lead, they dictated.. and they didn't really "work". what was really sickening.. to watch a "leader"'s three year old kid develop the same finger pointing habits of the parent.. "there it is, do this, do that.." and then their sixteen year old kid (or maybe seventeen) at one of the campuses, "instructing" the CORPS.. the parent was so "proud".. even back then with my eyes glazed over, it really rubbed me wrong.. sometimes, I think if they dropped the arrogance, I'd call a truce, and drop my hostility..

Gandi had an interesting point.. why throw out the British if you're just gonna BE British.. Why annex a significant portion of waydom merely to BE waydom.. lessee.. run their classes.. well, close facimiles. Adhere to the doctrine like it's gawd in the flesh.. now.. run an "honors" "be all you can be" program? Where are they going to "send" these "leaders and workers"? Only place I can think.. into the ORGANIZATION, to get RESULTS. Results.. for whom? Some that got sent to my area here, I'd rather they just stayed home..

haahahahahha..

Maybe they just don't see it. It makes sense for the marines. Send them to boot camp, get them lined up in a row, disciplined, and all in agreement with the commander in chief, at least as far a action is concerned.. but a church? Yep.. send them to boot camp, give them some kinda hierarchy to fit into.. a sacrosanct agenda to promote.. more "accountability".. sounds like something I've heard before. Gotta put some teeth into da love of gawd.. and some people call this "moving da word". What really troubles me though.. Shroyer is hardly cold, and we see this little development..

And they probably wonder.. why is an "elder of the church" going back to school, at fifty years old.. spent our life among strangers.. yeah.. people would turn their backs on friends and family at the slightest hint of debil possession. The NICEST thing I ever heard about somebody who was gone for one reason or another "don't call or initiate contact with him. If he calls you, refer him to me. He's just working out a few problems.." It was almost like they didn't even really know them. Or me. When I left, I didn't hear ANYTHING from those still in. Nothing.. even to this day. I was in the coffee shop one morning here.. and one innie came in with a group.. she sat in a chair on the other side of the room, and turned so as (presumably) either I would not see and recognize her, or that she wouldn't have to look at me. And I'm (or at least used to be) a nice guy. So what happened to the "community" we were supposedly building. There was no real cement. And this new outfit.. wonders why I would raise a few questions and objections. gawd.. I could practically hear the phone calls and practically see the emails going behind the scene. "Whadda we do about ham.." It's not MY future they are determining. It's theirs..