Ham

Another thought.. Fast growth can be a highway to hell for some organizations. It's it's own worst nightmare.. the old ministry rapidly outgrew it's ability to provide SOUND leadership at an alarming rate. That's providing it could provide sound leadership to begin with. These new bunch coming up. They are what.. 21, 22, 23.. 24.. "we gotta BUILD men and women.." I think they will end up with the same thing as the old.. many leaders as uneducated and unsound as they are inept and unproven. I saw many in the old days side with evil because it was simply the easier route. Or it felt right. Or it had enough money. So many of the leaders of this newer offshoot.. are facing the twilight years of their life.. there's not entirely monumental growth in the organization.. loss of other leaders probably remind them of their own mortality.. why are they so desperately afraid, or concerned- that their "legacy" will pass into the night.. I view this new development as a desperate measure.

Naw. Brain case is WAY too large.

I can see it. "2001, a Vey Oddysey" opening scenes, a monkey, remarkably resembling loy, with a bone that resembles the letter M. He throws it in the air.. flash forward two million decades, to the spinning W in space..

If this kind of question enrages someone.. it just proves a point. They haven't thought the thing through..

please don't take this as an insinuation or accusation of any given individual in the organization. but as the coordinator of a program.. what do you do IF you catch one you trust your life with putting their greasy hands on an enrollee.. turn your head, and act like it was your imagination.. or that it didn't happen? Do you have the REAL character to "deal" with it? "Naw, too negative.. it would NEVER happen.." Want to bet? If you can't "deal" with it.. even just the POSSIBILITY.. you're not ready by a long shot, in my opinion. Similar incidents happened in the parent organization. People either turned their heads, said nothing, ingnored it, or they lost their heads. If one thinks these questions are hard and mean, consider that the questions on the other end of a witness stand are a heck of a lot "harder".. and one finds themselves forced to answer, in many cases. ask rosie, loy.. Hopefully, I'm almost done here.. :) If I didn't care, I wouldn't say a damn thing..

The idea that a "novice", or "young man" as another poster put it, is coordinating something like this is disturbing to me.. anybody who shuts off communication just because someone asks a few "hard" questions, only gives me a few MORE questions, harder than the ones before. What about their maturity, their meekness.. their real qualifications to coordinate something like this.. if he can't deal with ME, how can he deal with his so called "mentors"? "We oughter have something like lead".. "fine".. "we oughter have something like the rodeo school" "fine".. I'm not questioning his "heart" or motive. I'm really questioning common sense, at least to begin with. what are you gonna do if someone REALLY gets hurt.. what REALLY qualified people are you going to have staff the deal.. are you gonna send people home on a whim, or use the "send you home at any time" clause as a threat when they don't "perform".. what are you gonna do if twi sends you a cease and desist letter.. I wonder if they even CONSIDERED that little possibility. Surely they know twi has been gleefully suing groups just because they have a similar name, or just look like them.. or "borrow" their material.. Mc**&&en knows.. The "young man" has far more to loose than the rest of them.

Yeah.. what's interesting, when they have your head bobbing up and down on doctrinal issues, they've pretty much got you.. :)

Friend, I wish.. I listened to a lot of what you had to say, much sooner :)

"Whadda I say, whadda I do.." "nothing, son, nothing.." when an "elder of the church" has every hair on his body standing upright over an "endeavor".. It's like.. in the days of Ahab.. what was it.. 350 of them said "go for it, man.." I really pray they are reading some of this stuff.. only avenue I've got.. :)

Interesting.. That is at least PARTLY encouraging.. but still- I could see my emails traded around in the background.. pretty close knit family. I wasn't exactly born yesterday.. I know the "routine" :)

with the dismal volunteer rate for the "real" corps.. maybe rosie should consider "outsourcing".. could practically sell their current training locations..

Those were basically the questions I asked.. maybe slightly more "pointed" however. :) Are they going to have some kind of "survival" program like lead? Specifically.. slip shod to the extent people end up losing toes to frostbite.. or something like the rodeo school.. only a few walked off with some broken vertabrae.. broken legs.. or the consequences of putting off a career, an education, twenty years from now.. These were SOME of the consequences I referred to that people DON'T sign on the dotted line for. Or is it a little "challenge" added as the program turns? If somebody here has a LOT closer "in" with them here, the above are the questions that I'd be asking.. along with these.. what are the people involved going to write about you, twenty five years from now? Are they going to find their names plastered all over yet ANOTHER "vomitorium"? The short term profit- you may get a few who survive, who can muster up enough resources to really move the organization.. maybe even really motivate a crowd.. and I'm sure a *few* good folks will come out of it.. they managed to in the old program.. but what are you going to look like in thirty years..

call it an "estranged" relationship.. I know the kid.. and the family.. but I've distanced myself, at least doctrinally.. I've just had enough of the same stuff.. don't hate them or anything.. but when I see something that makes my hair stand on end, I WILL say something.. even if it's not done according to Rocky's etiiquette.. :)

Sadly, I feel many of my "helpful" comments were considered rather "negative".. kinda like.. why ruin "the walk by faith" with a few details.. it's at this point I turn cynical. At least there is ONE difference between this, and the inception of vic's "corps".. there are a number of people watching VERY VERY carefully. Whatever happens, I feel my hands are clean in the matter..

They can't deliver ICBM's, that I know of, at least yet.. or bring war to our particular shore.. Second best choice? Bury us under a barrage of hard drives, cars, garden implements and kitchen appliances perhaps?

My impression is they don't really KNOW the mistakes gramps made.. I think they were carefully shielded. I don't know what they think of the parents. One son of the innies publically called one of the "twigs" a "geezer fellowship" on a myspace page. Maybe he has half a chance.. but I think the general thought among a lot of them is: "it was something that happened when I was five years old.. what POSSIBLE RELEVANCE would that have to today?" I think youngster took at least one history class.. what "possible relevance" could what the British did to China in the last century or so have to do with the current state of affairs.. They just let bygones be bygones and all.. It was just "business" ya know.. supplied a little dope to heat up the economy a little.. sure.. "let's just be friends now.." ;) But the system they are trying to resurrect, taught people how to live in poverty and grovel.. no college loans, just stay in the same dead end career..no house payments, just keep making the bank payment for some landlord.. no car payments, just own a rust bucket that costs you ten times the maintenance.. and above all, be LOYAL.. give fifteen percent and up, an keep smiiiiiling..

I'd like to make a small comparison.. what are "nunneries" turning out these days? Here's one who teaches chemistry and biochemistry: http://www.odu.edu/webroot/orgs/IA/univers...2122007040147PM here's one who will likely be able to teach graduate courses in literature: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...750C0A96E958260 .There are well over a hundred nuns in the u.s. who have a REAL doctorate in Mathmatics.. what are they doing? Raising up chemists, physicists, engineers, more math people.. among other things. Trying to improve the economy despite insane governments in some parts of the world.. or just helping ordinary people with a career, so they can properly support themselves and their family. And we were "warned" of the dire consequences of their beliefs.. trinity and all ya know.. The Way Corps was FOR THE MOST PART, an utter, abysmal failure.. what did it produce? A FEW good apples. I know them too. But for the most part, I think what came out were not leaders and workers, but trained sycophants, honed in a carefully crafted shell game, a scam where they live on the backs of others. Along with meddlesome tyrants who aren't happy unless they have their nose in every crevice of your life.. and abusers, both sexual and psychological.. Look at gear, loy, lynn, the guy with the tinfoil hat.. what's his name.. and others. They don't know how to do anything else, for the most part. at least lynn did something "secular"- I'll give him that much credit. "believe to bring MATERIAL ABUNDANCE to yourself (we really mean) the ministry". Sorry.. to me, this newfangled thing looks the same as the old. unless they have a five year plan to get these "inductees" through school, or something legitimate, it's doomed..

Apparently no choice in his "vocation" either. It was "named" for him. He's been surrounded, carefully groomed by these over the hill moglets who can't run a ministry based on their own name.. He may have good character, but I *think* a pumped ego. And who did that.. I ask again.. why else is he hanging out with a bunch of OLD GEEZERS (and I put myself *almost* in the same category) "coordinating" a Way Corps lookalike program? Why isn't he in grad school? why.. isn't he building REAL CREDENTIALS AND ABILITIES? Instead he's hanging out with in my honest opinion.. a bunch of moggish loosers stuck on a dead end street.. and they seem to be rather happy to carry a banner with his name on it.. I have bad feelings about this little venture, almost any way I look at it.. You don't want to know the rest of what I really think about all of this.

Johnny, that's kinda my point. We, or I sent people off to get what was reputed as the finest christian training in the world.. to a group the we (thought) we KNEW.. with instructors whom I basically gave the benefit of the doubt.. vic could do no wrong.. or don, or howie.. or Lynn.. or any of them. I left the way in a similar circumstance as you. It was right at the time I'm leaving the joint, or shortly after, that I find myself learning about the corruption these "good men" weaved into the organization. The guys running this new thing.. I know, or at least THINK I know them. But I thought I knew the guys running the program in the old days too. I would hope so. adding a few precautions would help too. who's in charge of the keepers..

So why would they even CARE what I think.. Not all the time, but often a dose of reality resembles your referenced curdled green expelled material.. the whole crew involved in the new venture.. they KNOW where the kind of organization they want to emlulate went to in the seventies, eighties, nineties.. except for the "coordinator". My opinion. the same system they are trying to wring some good out of, provided courtesans for the mogs and mog wanabes.. and thank God- YOU didn't take advantage of it. But how many did? I'm sure they won't come forward into the little "vomitorium" and spill their guts.. probably have wives, families they might destroy.. oh well.. it'll probably eat their stomach out for the rest of their days. How much does junior really know about the "history of da way"? we didn't get very far..

But Rocky's outrage was kinda a surprise. You'd a thought I slapped the Queen of England or something.. :) The last time I heard that kind of "correction" was about twenty five or so years ago from an equally unlikely source: a young girl who was a retired hippie of sorts.. I called vic "wierwille".. and she almost jumped out of her skin and hissed, "WE CALL HIM DOCTOR Wierwille!!!" You'd a thought I'd slapped the Queen of England or something..

Johnny, I'm actually being civil here. I'll spare you from seeing my nasty side.. ;) But.. didn't these guys have a CLUE of what kind of hornets nest they would stir up.. I just want a few answers. If "they" would have kept up some kind of dialog, I wouldn't be posting my questions and concerns here.. Apparently they don't owe me any answers on account of my lack of involvement in the organization. Only a guess, but probably a good one..

given his history with der vey, a court very well may consider something like this beyond simple copyright infringement.. toss in something that involves the word "malicious".. how many acres do you say you have?

Another thought.. with such a CLOSE resemblence to a product of "The Way International".. I'd be quite suprised if they didn't get a letter from twi's legal "champions".. especially since Mc***en is involved in it..

If it is a work/study program.. who is going to do the teaching? what material? are they gonna run bootleg copies of vic's Thesslonians teachings? Or Romans? Or whatever? These REALLY are the kind of questions that SHOULD be answered on a web page somewhere.. or a course catalog. If I had a child considering going to something like this.. I would REALLY REALLY want to have a few HONEST answers.. it reminds me of a scene at a sanitarium in the 1800's.. dropping off a loved one who is just a little confused.. "You'll treat him OK? What are you going to do?" "Don't worry mahm.. we know what we are doing.. we'll take GOOD care of him.."