Ham

There is saint's blood in that stew.. and they've hauled it off, and they are serving it to others even today... bad karma seems to follow it, wherever it is served. Look what it did to CES.. We will see what it does to the "other" ministry. And I think we are starting to see.

sorry.. hit the add reply button to quick.. edited to add comments.. :)

No, vic served BAD Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard stew. Just toss in some Bullinger, Leonard, etc, and a few hundred acts of adultery or so, a few druggings, unbridled arrogance, idolatry, hatred, going on rages over rather insignificant matters, pornography.. thefts (the supposed main ingredients), bribery, both giving and taking, wrath, witchcraft (especially if you consider the drugged ladies, so the man-o-gawd could be SPIRITUALLY relieved, and at his best). Add the few times around the campfire, when he could just play being a nice guy, the "gentle giant" who brought all of this, and more. Kinda have to look at the big picture.. the main ingredients were only incidental. Bullinger, Stiles.. Kenyon.. their reputation was probably better off, that he DIDN'T cite them..

Must've been another national geographic thing.. I saw where people that were savaged by bears, sharks.. they didn't exactly forgive the bear, or shark. They just finally came to terms with the beast's nature. "no, it wasn't personal.. he was just following his brute instincts. would have ripped the lungs indiscriminately out of anyone who walked by his den.." maybe the bear "blessed" someone in the meantime.. threw them a few "leftovers".. I'm glad you got "blessed" mack.. just don't read the ingredients of the stew you partook of..

Plus it wasn't just one or two individuals.. most of these fine qualities were easily observable in one limb leader I knew.. and a couple of limb coordinators later.. and ALMOST every single branch coordinator.. two region coordinators.. most were trained by vic, one I think, only loy trained him.. Ra*ph D was about the only one above reproach, of those who I have SOME personal knowledge of. I think at least half of these negative qualities are observable in several offshoot leadership.. some of them, I see not overt evil, but spiritual if not intellectual blindness. Just plain clueless. "unfit" for the "ministry".. They claim to have left "gawd's ministry" with the GOLD? maybe fool's gold..

My, DWBH, you are organized with your questions.. the "endless loop of reasoning" I was alluding to Mike, it's kinda like one of my cats. He gets on the bed, goes in circles for a couple of minutes, sometimes attacking his tail. When he wears himself out, he usually stops in the particular position, or point of view when he's just too tired to go on.. :) I think that happens to some people who saw the vicster with his pants down, so to speak. "well, he's the mog, isn't he? da word says so.. but he's disgusting.. can't be a mog and do that to people.. but then again, he speaks in da tongues.. has to be what he claims.. but then again.." eventually some come to the conclusion that the food tasted better way back then, when they didn't know about the plagiarism, the adultery the abuse.. the giving and accepting of bribes.. the dispicible behavior.. The cold reality of being "had" is not an option. For some people. But here goes.. See.. gold, silver, stones.. wood, hay.. stubble.. all happen to be good building material. All are suitable, depending on the climate I suppose. I for one would not want to try to build on that foundation lies, arrogance, plagiarism, adultery, pornography, alcoholic rages, and other forms of uncleanness in general.. they are not exactly good building materials. In fact, they introduce CORRUPTION. I see no contradiction.. that is, if one actually believes the account to begin with.. "the one who the temple CORRUPTS, CORRUPTION will bring to him God.." Forgive the old vicster, or loy.. or others? I don't think it's in my power.. so why do some think we actually have a real NEED to forgive them? Personally, I've merely come to terms with their character. What they ARE, is what they DO, or did.. maybe that's the best I can do. false ministers falsely minister.. adulterers commit adultery, abusers abuse.. plagiarizers plagiarize.. strivers strive, liars lie.. haters hate, wolves eat sheep.. but rarely, would they eat their own kind or offspring. but when you find ALL of these "fine qualities" wrapped up in one, or two individuals.. doesn't that say something? It's like a proof by construction. If he fits all the axioms.. why can't one simply extend their horizons, and come to the obvious conclusion?

Not easy? seems pretty obvious to me.. these sets he spoke of were and are real, tangible things. It's pretty simple. A set is either a member of itself or it isn't. you have the set of all dogs.. the set of all hydrogen nuclei.. the set of all salamanders.. either the whole set is a set of itself, or it isn't. pretty simple.. so you tell me. Is the set of all sets not belonging to themselves in the set, or is it not? It's the biblical stuff that's hard. How a "certain one" can corrupt the temple.. creep in "unawares".. look genuine.. but he can't be "counterfiet".. he's a speakin da word.. hear? he even speaks in tongues.. but if he has the real spirit, why doesn' he live like it? but that doesn't make any difference. Debils can't speak in tongues. He can't be a counterfiet.. he's a sspeakin da word. But why doesn't he live it? Why does he abuse people worse than a tyrant? Naw.. that can't be right.. must be counterfiet.. see, it's even worse than Russel's Paradox. If he's a man-o-gawd, he CAN'T be a man-o-gawd.. on the other hand, if he's NOT a man-o-gawd, he must be..

The guy who claimed to have the mastery over the "contradictions" gave people problems worse than the contradictions themselves. "faith" may be wonderful.. but let's see the "works". Oh, speaking of contradictions, have you ever seen this? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-paradox/ they say he wasn't exactly "right" after trying to deal with this little hole in reality..

hmm. That is assuming a lot.. 1. That we are mortal.. 3. I think it is far easier for some to willfully ignore what God himself at least attributes to himself as "doing later". I won't share "2."

I don't know if I can agree with the vey commentary on that verse anymore. It's an "escape clause" from supposed damnnation. If one chooses to us the vicster's explanation of life, eternal life, and everything: 1. the vicster spoke in tongues * . 2. it's proof that he had the "spirit". + 3. the "spirit" is SEED, and incorruptible. & If you accept what HE said as truth.. then on the inside, he was clean as the fresh snow.. * this is questionable, at best. Anybody can mutter some pretty weird sounding stuff. Maybe even make it sound like Swahili or something. + I consider it highly unlikely, on account of comments on *. & I just plain don't agree. Too many other places suggest that God reserves the right to "yank it out". :)

I don't know about parsing, but I do see a usage of antanaclasis. Since it is in the same sentence, I don't think it's an anadiplosis.. but what do I know..

There's a manuscript somewhere, if I could just find it.. you stinking research people better get on the ball.. it's there somewhere. "when thou art smitest by der man-o-gawd, think nothing of it. It is thy common lot. For thou are smitest by the king of kings, the lord of.." you have to see it in the original.

Interesting how twi "soothed" harsh pasages, like threats of eternal fire, hanging millstones about heads of perpetrators, loss of inheritance, warnings against adultery, etc. etc. and "harshed" smooth passages, like the lord's return, when people would have to endure interrogation from the lord himself for not standing with der man-o-gawd..

Now they are using it for firewood. Just bleed off enough to warm themselves with a few big salaries, big trips.. should last a decade or so shouldn't it? I wouldn't bet on it..

The whole friggin tree was laced with poison.. maybe not overnight, but it did die from the roots up.. well, maybe as far as longevity of a church, or similar organization is concerned, one might say it died overnight.

and loy, and *almost* every other bot/bod member.. a half a dozen branch coordinators I knew.. several limb leaders and later coordinators.. and more than a handful of "garden variety" "believers"..

Can you imagine "twig" circa 1998 or so.. "your abs seems to be off mark this week.." "oh, I bought some poor guy a coupla meals.." Next line, fill in the blank..

I think James answered that little question too. Why spoil a ministry of "faith" with a few good works.. in fact.. I remember loy discouraging good works.. designated them "second-rate causes".. hmm.

I dunno.. I don't want a way funeral. Please no..

Neither of my kids are involved with twi.. or an offshoot. Maybe that's all I ought to say..

And a new organization that can't answer a few polite, but pointed questions.. "see, this is what happened with the same kind of system and rules. what are you doing to keep it from happening again?" "happened twenty years ago. Doesn't mean anything now.." or "we're just trying to move the word.. what are YOU doing?", or "fighting *them* to keep *them* from doing their thing isn't really a godly, noble cause, you should be doing what gawd wants you to do, in da BIBLE.." kind of answers makes every hair on my body stand on end.. at least there are fewer on top to succumb to this, in recent years..

I just think when the hucksters use the bible to silence their victims, there's a whole other level of betrayal of a human being. And they've trained others to do the same. "speak the same thing.." "only magnify the word.. gawd forbid we magnify da debil with gossip or negatives.." "you HAVE to forgive.." "this little matter is not important. It's da WORD that's at stake.." "wouldn't it just be EASIER to forgive.." It would have been a heck of a lot easier if these gods in their own estimation kept their hands to themselves.. and didn't play with people's lives.

Hey, I knew that friend.. I wasn't asking you.. :)

I think a pretty close comparison can be made. A short exerpt of Michael Reagan's article: http://caglecartoons.com/column.asp?column...D632A462AC14%7D I've heard when they prey on multiple victims, they set the rules of how one is to be treated by the community when he or she betrays the "secret".. da vey's tactics, when things went "wrong"? Threaten them with the prospect that if they reveal the act, that they'll ruin the bible, the ministry, and gawd's gonna be really, really dissapointed. Or if that doesn't work, run them off grounds, mark them as possessed.. or worse. Some were not able to speak of it for decades.. the few who come forward seem to have their motives questioned.. demand of details and evidence to back up the claims.. raw dismissal because some can't remember whether the room it happened had red drapes, or green.. pretty apparent to me that we had a community with a conditioned response. Somebody who'd make such a "wild" claim would just HAVE to be possessed.. we were "owned".. do "they" still own YOU? I think that this isn't really off topic. I think that's part of the pattern of abuse. The community or some in it demanding forgiveness for the abuser.. "aw, he didn't mean it.. it wasn't his fault.. he's just distracted..after all, he feeds us.. buys us candy.. lay off him and just forgive.."

And that is precisely why many were abused, run over, and run off. No personal will.. is it? or is their will what they THINK scripture declares? when something is devilish and harmful, I think the scriptures demand us to SCREAM.. even if it's "after the fact". I was talking with one of my kids about something like this last night. There's a *certain* situation where "they" would merely counter, "well, we don't talk about that kinda stuff.. we just want to magnify the WORD.." she says it's the language of abuse. Their will is broken, as I think you have described.. "no personal will when it comes to the word(?).." they've been TRAINED to not talk about the abuse. that's what abusers DO.. lockbox stuff comes right out of molestation 101. It's a SECRET.