Ham

If I may have liberty to "revise"..

It seems that it is much easier to claim, or actually prove one is NOT supposedly born again, than to prove one IS supposedly born again.. maybe the moral of the story here.. don't give several thousand people GOOD REASON to think you are NOT. Your name just might find itself rightfully smeared in a place like this even while you're still alive.. and don't leave a trail of carefully hidden dead bodies for them to find twenty years later either. :) Maybe it's like a scam artist.. a seller of snake oil.. easier to show that he is a scam artist, a seller of snake oil, than to show an honest person is really honest.. these mogster types just made the job easier..

I personally wouldn't want that cheap of a redemption.. I had more "fruit of the spirit" than that when I was designated a stinking unbeliever..

I don't think one should have to move heaven and earth.. have to finely dissect a "man"'s life to try to find love, joy, peace.. longsuffering.. gentleness, faith, meekness, and SELF CONTROL.. even on stage he "blew it" in a lot of instances.. I saw him go into a rage and throw a bible once..cursing and spitting.. I understand he was a hundred times worse in "real life". "fruit" really should be a heck of a lot easier to detect. What kind of redemption are we really talking about here? Does it have value? Or is it so worthless and powerless, that a man who supposedly receives it, or submits himself to it just goes on his merry way, and sins worse than before. See.. he had an explanation for almost EVERYTHING.. "when one is born again, the MIND is NOT affected.." obviously it didn't affect HIS.. the "I just sat there, and cried like a baby.." must have been just one more contrivance.. All this teaching about the spirit burning the "dross" like a fire.. must have been a contrivance as well.

are you suggesting when he was under "spiritual pressure" he "fell of the wagon" a few more times.. persecuted christians, led them to their death? Held the garments while they were being stoned to death? to me, that would make your argument a little more logical here..

I dunno.. the "people" and all that is.. even if one is of the seed "royal".. there really aren't any guarantees..

"as the stomach turns" sounds like a soap opera of sorts.. I can only imagine the music as we cut to a commercial break of.. "As the Stomach Turns"

Friggin idjits.. feeding his ego so it'll grow big and strong like the old man's.. If one finds oneself with "no friends when it comes to da word.." I really think one finds oneself without friends. At least REAL friends.. Sadly, I don't see how one at a "youthful" or "feeblehearted" stage of character or development can resist this kind of nonsense..

Sincerely, I think the "key word" is CWAZY. Nutso, wired wrong.. it goes by other nicer names. But if a guy thinks he's a wabbit.. wears pointed ears, pulls up cabbage and carrots from the neighbors garden, with his bare teeth.. what's the "conclusion"? Or if he claims to be Napoleon.. or some other long expired "man of greatness" in history.. they used to lock them up. Now, they run the streets.. budget cuts ya know.. at least MOST of them don't get many followers. Restart the French revolution or something.. But why is it.. a "fellow" who displays DRAMATIC mood swings.. claims to have the greatest TRUTH since the earth cooled.. just ADORES having followers supply his every whim.. consumed Drambuie like a horse gulping down water.. absolutely DEMANDS worship and protocol, under his breath of course.. and sometimes not so quietly.. buys a "doctorate" at a degree mill, and plasters the name on every publication he has control of.. yep..that was the name on my pfal syllabus.. "DR vp".. claims to have saved the u.s. from violent overthrow, if not western civilization itself, by the "might" of his great believing.. my god.. he got us to build an AUDITORIUM in his name.. let followers lavish him with praise, call him THE man of GOD for our day and time.. be able to convince women that sex with the mogster could be considered a holy duty of sorts.. Why is it when one mixes the bible into the mix.. the madman is no longer a madman.. he's a SAINT, and worthy to be compared to the apostle Paul.. to Solomon.. to David.. after all, he can grunt a half a dozen words that sound like Swahili or something. :) Now we're supposed to forgive him, and those after him who followed in his steps.. get quotes of verses claiming just voicing what logic dictates puts one in threat of "blasphemy against the holy spirit".. sorry.. I'm just trying to understand some people.. :) Twenty some years ago, I would have been better off going off, following a wabbit..

Doesn't sound exactly "normal" to me.. on any count. Didn't they have some kind of president's anthem or something they were to play at the supposed appropriate time? I remember a number of years ago he went on tour.. did some kind of itinerary where fawning, slobbering followers cheered him on everywhere he went. then got a second rate auditorium with his name on it.. and what about the times the corps were rousted in the middle of the night, to stand in the driveway to greet the mogster at his arrival at a campus somewhere in Kansas.. or standing in a cornfield in front of a tent wearing tux and top hat, followers anxiously awaiting the official opening, an airplane flying just a hundred feet over the tent.. this is just scratching the surface. "oh, oh, don't give me the glory.. it's da greatness of gawd ya know.." right. Just when you don't not give him the glory, make sure that when you don't deliver the glory to the right place, don't do it without the right kind of protocol. loy never quite attained the same god like status.. didn't he forbid vic's name from being even uttered, at one time or another? people were saying.. "how would "doc" handle the verse.. how would "doc" handle the circumstance.." found he couldn't even compete with a dead man. Maybe that's what "atheletes" was all about.. sex two or three or more times a day.. jumping about in tights.. "lessee you do THIS, old man.." I'd imagine vic sitting there.. his whole life flashing before his eyes.. About the only two options I can condense this to in my small mind.. either these two were simply calloused, plain evil and calculating in their efforts to defraud God's people, corral women into their respective office or motorcoach, abuse people and deliberately attempt to decieve, justifying it with scripture.. or they were *merely* insane. Really believed it all.. just happened to be wackos that had the DUMB LUCK to hit the "big time".. I think the vicster may have been schizophrenic.. he'd be gawd almighty on one hand, breathing fire and meanness, then on the other.. he'd be the sweetest little "crying like a baby" guy you'd ever seen. Not loy. I never remember loy being able to turn on, or switch to the "mr sensitivity" routine.. I would think of loy more in the previous category. And the fox. I wonder why she would try to avoid vic's phone calls.. "tell him I'm not in.." hide behind staff.. get people to lie for her.. maybe she came to the same conclusion- he was NUTS. Just be quiet.. keep the women, gifts and drambuie flowing.. stay low key.. do the same thing for the "man" who came after him.. if she thought "I'm doing this so when I get control, I'll be able to heal gawd's people's precious hearts.." the time is long past. I think this rambling isn't too far off topic. How can you forgive a madman? Or a hard core, hardened criminal? Or their cronies? Maybe understand.. but forgive? I don't know.

yeah.. and maybe that's why a lot of pimps and drug dealers "convert".. start a ministry or cult or something.. or join one. I personally know that mr. limb leader guy "just get over it and get laid.." "counsellor" was a heroin addict.. had a "dealers habit".. until vic gave him a new drug..

some beliefs would suggest He spread a bit of himself around, so to speak.. Makes as much sense as anything else.. I've heard other opinions. He gave some of his life for this creation to form.. first the withdrawl of divine light, then "things" kinda precipitated.. string theory may partly agree with this. We have basically three dimensions that survived when whatever happened happened.. along with time of course.. at least three dimensions that are intact, unbroken.. I think that bits of him were left floating around so to speak.. for a lot longer than what some may think.. I think we've been around for a long, long, long time..

Thanks for the encouraging words. maybe we oughta try this on those who "came after" him.. all I need now is a six foot eight inch male nurse named "Bubba".. biceps the size of basket balls..

can I offer a suggestion? We put the mogster in the straight jacket.. put him in the little padded room.. give him the right kind of sedatives, THEN forgive?

It's like.. from the descriptions here.. he was a supposed saint.. a devil at the drop of the hat.. umm.. which "personality" is one supposed to forgive? aggressive as hell.. and a somofabitch at one moment.. the next, teaching corps night.. peaceful.. the next moment.. corralling unwilling victims into his lair.. the next moment.. getting some guy to repopulate rabbits in northern ohio, so his grandkids can see rabbits.. true story. the next moment.. tearing some poor camera guy's lungs out in front of a live audience.. Honestly.. I think he was schizophrenic.. can you forgive a madman? I don't know..

Really.. if Paul the apostle lured a few christians to "off" in his motorcoach.. to relieve his day to day pressures.. it would make sense.. unbelievable..

If Paul went back to supposedly killing christians the day, or even the year after his conversion, or even ten years.. your comparison might have a little validity. how ineffective, and how trivial must have been the redemption vic claimed to have enjoyed.

I've "dumped" every bit of way, pfal materials.. etc.. only one thing left.. the notebook bible that has a complete copy of the 62 page syllabus, all kinds of junk.. any takers before it goes to the town "gehenna"? can't have my Bullinger bible. It has absolutely NO added notes in it.. :)

I can respect the guy for this.. more than anything he's done for "da ministry".. at least SOME of them are putting their money where their mouth is.. or at least so it seems..

recent developments would suggest that these vast holes you speak of are opening up that have a REMARKABLE resemblence to twi..

They say Kesey could cook up some really good venison stew..

I didn't exactly "black out" verses.. but the number of notes on top of everything in my old oxford sure makes it look like it..

Over on that "other" site, they are probably serving it with champagne..

Maybe that's why they call this place a "vomitorium". Read the ingredients for what you've just consumed.. you're gonna vomit.. just "too negative" I guess.. When I learned how to read, I once read the ingredients on a package of bologna.. they put some pretty nasty stuff in it in those days.. I never ate it again.