Ham

I wasn't going to say that.. there's one around here with wings that shows up every once in a while.

and their greatest fear- many of them aren't constantly under threat of being whacked with a wooden spoon..

New perspective.. hmm. Well, they could emerge from obscurity with a prize-winning research team.. a new, dynamic leader.. offer a marketable product which MIGHT actually have something to offer.. local "leaders" who don't really mind if you don't show up for a couple of weeks to "twig".. or put off the "special" so you can spend time with family and friends during the holiday.. or put off corpses "training" so you can get a REAL education somewhere.. using student loans to do so, if need be.. or could care less if you buy a house or car and make bank payments.. and encourage people to get on the internet, check out the unsolicited evaluations they der vey is receiving. Not entirely inconceivable. They say cows can fly as well..

Ya know.. the discipline and focus you beat into people very well may one day turn against you..

The other thing I was thinking.. I can almost hear their argument.. "wayulll, we have a WHOLE COMMITTEE over this thing.. NEVER would be the same as the old way" want to bet? Look at CES. They had what.. how many people on the board.. and STILL it turned into an elite "prophcies and momentus R us" club.. what makes you think a committee makes any kind of difference. So you all are "of one mind".. "one accord" as far as what you PERCEIVE to be the Word of God. Tyranny really is the same, whether it is practiced by a dictator, or a board of five people who tow the line.

Sounds like more posturing here.. I'm Paul.. he's.. whatever? I asked many of the same honest questions personally, of the guy who is supposedly spearheading the new (old) endeavor. probably "designed" for the "special" fellow laborer.. the few, the elite.. Who's running it. What are their qualifications. What qualified people do you have on staff. Oh, the little "we can terminate the program at any time".. is it a threat you'll hold over the trainees and scream if they don't seem to muster up the superhuman strength to cut and stack firewood, take care of your farm animals, hoe the garden, AND be able to stay awake for four more hours listening to old "doc" vic's tapes at night? Something like "take our .... or leave"? Of course I asked that question a lot more politely.. What do you do when someone gets hurt in this "extreme" adventure? Blame them because of their supposed lack of believing, and send them home? Do you REALLY think that having the enrollees sign a hold harmless agreement will REALLY protect you if you can be shown to be negligent? Do you know about the abuses that were "enjoyed" in the old system, the one you are trying to resurrect.. What safeguards have you put in the "program" to keep THAT from happening again.. or are you just going to run a spiritually and physically slip shod operation like the one before turned out to be? What kind of five year plan do you have to get these people through some REAL education, REAL qualifications? If you don't, you're sunk.. you're just gonna teach people how to live in poverty.. Are you just gonna raise another bunch of hardened yes men, bound to some standard that even you can't live up to? as far as qualifications.. "well, I was on fellow laborers.. isn't that good enough.." "Marine Corps" for the "body of Christ".. bull sheet. You haven't even been through basic training yourself to begin with.. You've got the name, but hardly the means.. and the question I didn't ask, before communication was shut off: and the staff. Yes.. the staff.. what kind of a system of ACCOUNTABILITY do you have in place? Or are they all just old "aunts and uncles" from the old way organization.. those who "can do no wrong"? "Honorable" counsellors, whom you may not have the balls to confront? What if an enrollee claims that someone laid a greasy hand on them? What do you do? Send them home, claiming they must be POSSESSED to make such a claim? It worked for the old organization on more than one ocassion.. where are the checks and balances? If these questions bring someone to a rage.. the only thing I can say, is you REALLY haven't thought the program through. You may not care for, or ask for an evaluation from the *special* graduates at the end of the year.. but in twenty years.. or maybe thirty, those you put through your "training" very well may be writing YOUR evaluations in a place like Greasespot.. will we be reading the same thing? Reports of "Incidents" that were carefully swept under a rug, along with passioned pleas for forgiveness? "Just get over it brotha.. look what Jesus went through.."

so what you are saying is there is no *real* standard for a person OUTSIDE of the one speaking to make ANY valid comments about the genuineness, or lack of..and if that is the case: speaking in tongues means absolutely NOTHING to anybody, except to the one speaking. Only he knows whether he is supposedly sincere, or faking it. Then It is an external evidence to others- of absolutely NOTHING. The vicster wouldn't be exactly self-serving when he claimed it could not be counterfieted, would he not? I mean.. whoda think that a false prophet or jackal in sheeps clothing could possibly be "born again" or something? Sure.. he "speaks in tongues." as far as the "sincere belief in the heart".. almost every successuful scam involves one portraying that illusion. They can rain tears.. "cry like a baby" if they have to.. I think WW posted the answer to that:

wow.. no replies.. have I been a baaad Squirrel today? *checks armpits* *sniff* I guess I did take a bath this morning.. maybe nothing more needs to really be said.. :)

so we have this "fruit of the spirit" that is undefined, fleeting and nebulous, and like the Cheshire cat, once one turns the back and looks again, it is gone.. so, on a practical level, Christianity is no different than any other religion. And cannot be differentiated from other religions, except for some perhaps a few unique beliefs? Is that what you are saying? That the "exclusive" salvation that is enjoyed by it's adherants give them the freedom to "do as thy will", and in the end let karma, the universe, or whatever is there figure it out? I smell the scent of Aleister Crowley here..

No replies, yet? there was a minister here, in one of the local mainstream churches. He was smart, charismatic.. really could move people.. they found out he was a womanizer. Documented of course.. so as a board, what do you do? Sweep in under the rug so as to not lose membership.. or threaten the victims to keep silence.. tell the church that they were possessed? Put him in charge of RESEARCH? The guy was OUT inside of a week. No notice. I was impressed. Oh.. the church didn't lose "the truth as it hath not been know since Martin Luther" either. those who "came after" him don't adore his name, or reference their sermons to his material.. or praise his name from the pulpit. some people actually take their beliefs and ethics rather seriously. One thing I can say for them.. they knew how to take the trash out..

It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why would one hold a plagiarizing, arrogant, self-serving, womanizing, adulterant, mean, power hungry, drambuie sucking, self-worshipping, falatial scoundrel (forgive me if I left anything out), as an example of the merits of redemption.. "well, he's in the book of life doncha know.." isn't this trashing one's own religion? All it suggests to me is that "that kind" of redemption is rather powerless.. where a man who supposedly has changed, merely continues life worse than before. Capone would make an equally good example. He could be a nice guy, buy poor people doughnuts.. but his day to day living habits wouldn't exactly exemplify redemption either. If the argument is "well, it's grace. the lord saves to the uttermost.." point out some salvation here, other than when he was receiving adulation on stage. If that is being "touched by the master's hand".. I don't think I would exactly want to be touched.

No. I don't think he was. If his day to day life was any real indication of the merits of redemption or the "new birth", I question the existence of either of them. It's just.. the "enormity" of the new birth and all.. a man supposedly being "changed".. how is it he can just go on with life and sin worse and worse. I thought it was supposed to be about WHOLENESS. Obviously it didn't exactly work in this particular case.. at least as indicated in THIS life..

If I may have liberty to "revise"..

It seems that it is much easier to claim, or actually prove one is NOT supposedly born again, than to prove one IS supposedly born again.. maybe the moral of the story here.. don't give several thousand people GOOD REASON to think you are NOT. Your name just might find itself rightfully smeared in a place like this even while you're still alive.. and don't leave a trail of carefully hidden dead bodies for them to find twenty years later either. :) Maybe it's like a scam artist.. a seller of snake oil.. easier to show that he is a scam artist, a seller of snake oil, than to show an honest person is really honest.. these mogster types just made the job easier..

I personally wouldn't want that cheap of a redemption.. I had more "fruit of the spirit" than that when I was designated a stinking unbeliever..

I don't think one should have to move heaven and earth.. have to finely dissect a "man"'s life to try to find love, joy, peace.. longsuffering.. gentleness, faith, meekness, and SELF CONTROL.. even on stage he "blew it" in a lot of instances.. I saw him go into a rage and throw a bible once..cursing and spitting.. I understand he was a hundred times worse in "real life". "fruit" really should be a heck of a lot easier to detect. What kind of redemption are we really talking about here? Does it have value? Or is it so worthless and powerless, that a man who supposedly receives it, or submits himself to it just goes on his merry way, and sins worse than before. See.. he had an explanation for almost EVERYTHING.. "when one is born again, the MIND is NOT affected.." obviously it didn't affect HIS.. the "I just sat there, and cried like a baby.." must have been just one more contrivance.. All this teaching about the spirit burning the "dross" like a fire.. must have been a contrivance as well.

are you suggesting when he was under "spiritual pressure" he "fell of the wagon" a few more times.. persecuted christians, led them to their death? Held the garments while they were being stoned to death? to me, that would make your argument a little more logical here..

I dunno.. the "people" and all that is.. even if one is of the seed "royal".. there really aren't any guarantees..

"as the stomach turns" sounds like a soap opera of sorts.. I can only imagine the music as we cut to a commercial break of.. "As the Stomach Turns"

Friggin idjits.. feeding his ego so it'll grow big and strong like the old man's.. If one finds oneself with "no friends when it comes to da word.." I really think one finds oneself without friends. At least REAL friends.. Sadly, I don't see how one at a "youthful" or "feeblehearted" stage of character or development can resist this kind of nonsense..

Sincerely, I think the "key word" is CWAZY. Nutso, wired wrong.. it goes by other nicer names. But if a guy thinks he's a wabbit.. wears pointed ears, pulls up cabbage and carrots from the neighbors garden, with his bare teeth.. what's the "conclusion"? Or if he claims to be Napoleon.. or some other long expired "man of greatness" in history.. they used to lock them up. Now, they run the streets.. budget cuts ya know.. at least MOST of them don't get many followers. Restart the French revolution or something.. But why is it.. a "fellow" who displays DRAMATIC mood swings.. claims to have the greatest TRUTH since the earth cooled.. just ADORES having followers supply his every whim.. consumed Drambuie like a horse gulping down water.. absolutely DEMANDS worship and protocol, under his breath of course.. and sometimes not so quietly.. buys a "doctorate" at a degree mill, and plasters the name on every publication he has control of.. yep..that was the name on my pfal syllabus.. "DR vp".. claims to have saved the u.s. from violent overthrow, if not western civilization itself, by the "might" of his great believing.. my god.. he got us to build an AUDITORIUM in his name.. let followers lavish him with praise, call him THE man of GOD for our day and time.. be able to convince women that sex with the mogster could be considered a holy duty of sorts.. Why is it when one mixes the bible into the mix.. the madman is no longer a madman.. he's a SAINT, and worthy to be compared to the apostle Paul.. to Solomon.. to David.. after all, he can grunt a half a dozen words that sound like Swahili or something. :) Now we're supposed to forgive him, and those after him who followed in his steps.. get quotes of verses claiming just voicing what logic dictates puts one in threat of "blasphemy against the holy spirit".. sorry.. I'm just trying to understand some people.. :) Twenty some years ago, I would have been better off going off, following a wabbit..

Doesn't sound exactly "normal" to me.. on any count. Didn't they have some kind of president's anthem or something they were to play at the supposed appropriate time? I remember a number of years ago he went on tour.. did some kind of itinerary where fawning, slobbering followers cheered him on everywhere he went. then got a second rate auditorium with his name on it.. and what about the times the corps were rousted in the middle of the night, to stand in the driveway to greet the mogster at his arrival at a campus somewhere in Kansas.. or standing in a cornfield in front of a tent wearing tux and top hat, followers anxiously awaiting the official opening, an airplane flying just a hundred feet over the tent.. this is just scratching the surface. "oh, oh, don't give me the glory.. it's da greatness of gawd ya know.." right. Just when you don't not give him the glory, make sure that when you don't deliver the glory to the right place, don't do it without the right kind of protocol. loy never quite attained the same god like status.. didn't he forbid vic's name from being even uttered, at one time or another? people were saying.. "how would "doc" handle the verse.. how would "doc" handle the circumstance.." found he couldn't even compete with a dead man. Maybe that's what "atheletes" was all about.. sex two or three or more times a day.. jumping about in tights.. "lessee you do THIS, old man.." I'd imagine vic sitting there.. his whole life flashing before his eyes.. About the only two options I can condense this to in my small mind.. either these two were simply calloused, plain evil and calculating in their efforts to defraud God's people, corral women into their respective office or motorcoach, abuse people and deliberately attempt to decieve, justifying it with scripture.. or they were *merely* insane. Really believed it all.. just happened to be wackos that had the DUMB LUCK to hit the "big time".. I think the vicster may have been schizophrenic.. he'd be gawd almighty on one hand, breathing fire and meanness, then on the other.. he'd be the sweetest little "crying like a baby" guy you'd ever seen. Not loy. I never remember loy being able to turn on, or switch to the "mr sensitivity" routine.. I would think of loy more in the previous category. And the fox. I wonder why she would try to avoid vic's phone calls.. "tell him I'm not in.." hide behind staff.. get people to lie for her.. maybe she came to the same conclusion- he was NUTS. Just be quiet.. keep the women, gifts and drambuie flowing.. stay low key.. do the same thing for the "man" who came after him.. if she thought "I'm doing this so when I get control, I'll be able to heal gawd's people's precious hearts.." the time is long past. I think this rambling isn't too far off topic. How can you forgive a madman? Or a hard core, hardened criminal? Or their cronies? Maybe understand.. but forgive? I don't know.

yeah.. and maybe that's why a lot of pimps and drug dealers "convert".. start a ministry or cult or something.. or join one. I personally know that mr. limb leader guy "just get over it and get laid.." "counsellor" was a heroin addict.. had a "dealers habit".. until vic gave him a new drug..