Ham

I tend to think either one "has it" or one does not.. it's like.. after all the fair speeches.. either it's really there or it isn't. If it's not, one can "renew the mind" to doomsday..

I dunno.. looks like a heck of a lot of assumptions. 1. Yes, I'd still be alive. I wasn't exactly on a course of self-destruction, neither did the debil have me in his sights for destruction, lest I believed the words of the vicster. 2. I don't entirely agree that what I got from twi I or II for that matter, was "given" to me. In fact, I think I paid far too much. 3. No, he was not a Doctor. He bought his "doctorate" with a short stint at a degree mill, and tried to use this second rate sheepskin to maneuver his way into high religious circles, political circles, and into the trust of unwary individuals. sometimes he was successful.

Personally.. I think they have delusions of grandeur.. I really think they've gone off the deep end.. we have one guy on the board who regards the "fire ring" at hq as some kind of holy place, on par with Arlington Cemetary.. we have another who stumbled through as abused and abuser, and doesn't have a stinking clue.. but has the ego the size of Texas.. another who just goes along with it all.. "well, it's biblical. It's biblical, isn't it?" "counsellors".. yes men, one and all.. and one kid.. "groomed" just for the moment.. kid, I'd run if I were you.. you're the one left holding the bag.

Perhaps. But then again, look at ces. Look at the viciousness, infighting, false prophecy against false prophecy. and ten years is a LONG TIME to put off a career.. in ten years, the resources to build one may not even exist. Maybe the others will move on, but where does that leave a 38 year old megalomaniac who won't be able to explain why he didn't do anything in the field of his degree for the last ten years or so? "ummm, well, I ran a camp for a few years.." Maybe that's the plan.. most of these old timers really behind the thing will likely have left this world.. cff will need a new president.. all he needs now is a "doctorate" from akribos or something..

Thanks friend DWBH. Your questions and observations are certainly relevant to the discussion at hand. These old time "elders of the church" you refer to are the young man's "counsellors". It's.. all in the family. I'm sure jp knows full well how abusive the old man could be. I would choose to think that he is intellegent enough to have observed and remember a lot of the abuse inflicted upon God's people in pa's "survivor new knoxville" program. McM*llen likewise. Why resurrect a system with such a STRONG potential for abuse, and actually advertises it? I think the kid doesn't have a clue.. he just thinks or they've convinced him that the rottenness was just something that happened long ago, that couldn't possibly have any relevance to life at hand. I think they've fed his ego.. got him on some grand expedition where he thinks he's gramps successor.. got him thinking he's got some kind of "ministry". They may not officially support this fiasco, but the ties to CFF are all too apparent. I wonder if they have a monument there in rememberance of "da teacher" yet.. wouldn't be suprised. The worst thing about all of this.. I really do care for these people, and it looks like they are digging themselves a grave they won't be able to climb out of..

and almost every step along the way he dropped those who had some real experience in life who wouldn't go along. He pretty much abandoned his old congregation. The old "fuddie duddies" who wouldn't blindly follow him down a wide swath of insanity. Then he lost another group of "fuddie duddies" about 1976 or so with the publication of jcing, in his attempt to put his name in the mogster "hall of fame". "I don't mean to be splashy or controversial, so I'll just publish the book with big letters and "not" in red.."

but.. like one his later followers, he managed to pull the failed lightbearer experience out of the fire by bringing back the head of "Swatratra" on a pole. In his case, he didn't have a tape recorder, so could only bring back a "stowrie" at best.. *comes back out of breath* *cough, cough, wheeze* "sorry we coulnd't get a class together folks.. we were too busy battling demons..but they told us we could always come back and try again.."

I think it was a mutual agreement. I found myself eye to eye with a madman and slowly backed away.. as far as recovery is concerned.. I had already started getting involved in the community. Shortly after, I went back to college.

darn.. I shoulda shot the dog instead..

On top of that.. has anyone else noticed how the vicster has other people address him in his dialog in the class? like the deal in india.. "that a man o gawd".. or other dialog, "well, DR Wierwille.." nooo.. he wouldn't call himself that.. but he'd have Johnny Jumpup do it for him..

In a normal family, one would not ordinarily subject their offspring to hours of screaming, acts of incest, demands that they perform activities that hold the possibility of losing fingers and toes, harsh criticism if they get sick, express supreme dissapointment if they fail to willingly offer you fifteen percent of their income, make threats that if they can't muster up a eight hour workday and manage to stay awake as you ramble on incoherently for another four or five hours, that you'll send them outside to fend for themselves. in a normal family that is.. "just getting you ready for the world, kiddo.." The world is a heck of a lot better place, for most people..

Pink Floyd, the Dark side of the moon..

It's refreshing to see honest to God effort to improve one's self and others who may want said improvement dismissed with the wave of a papal hand..

From the rants on the tapes, I thought he was furious they were teaching what was supposedly ministry-owned materials. Wouldn't suprise me if they made off with a bunch of material stuff.. but who knows.. I never heard anything to really verify it. I know they had loads of books and stuff in limb bookstores. I know they made off with mailing lists.. pfal being "stolen".. I think he was furious he sold away publication rights to another madman- gear.

Makes one wonder, doesn't it? :)

Partial quote, but the whole thing is just above.. Why is it supposedly good, for the OTHER guy? You know.. the guy going through it? I'll say this.. when they REALLY started putting a lot of the same kind of screws to people out in the twigs, branches.. a lot of them couldn't handle it. As far as question one: I think when they supposedly ran these little programs to "toughen people up", they didn't really end up with tough people, more like people with hard hearts. Hard people. And crushed people. How many times did people sit in corps night, in stupid meetings, and watch while the mogster in charge utterly crushed an individual? Where this is supposed to fit in the category of "Christian character" is beyond my comprehension.. makes me think of the new corpsie most unexcellent adventure.. what are they gonna end up with? As far as #2: I think I was an intelligent, vulnerable person who got conned out of what I really should have been doing in life.

If indeed you think you're recruiting the "best".. and it is an HONORS program.. Honest to God.. what is the real NEED to hold some kind of threat over people to "behave nice" if they are really HONORS "students"??!! Even the military can't summarily throw people out on a whim.. six or eight weeks into boot camp.."well, just go home boys.. we don't need any more soldiers today" I wouldn't send my kids to your church.. for all the wealth of Egypt..

and the other thing "board".. who's idea was it to hold a wild card to dismiss people at the drop of a hat? Somehow, I really don't think it was the kid's..

Those who've stayed in the dark cell well past time they KNEW it was a scam, and actually HAVE options (unlike some with relatives and family still in) remind me of the canibalistic morlocks in Well's "The Time machine".. like.. those on top. I think they've mutated into disgusting, beastial like manipulators, sucking the life out of those under their "charge". They are uglier as each year passes.. Today, I can honestly say I like who I am.. I wonder if they can say the same.

"being the man I knew (in my case know) to be" some of us who have abandoned playing some religous shell game, picked up some real life skills and spirituality are doing just that..

I would rephrase that.. "the greatest learning in forgiving is learning to have the CHARACTER needed not to give someone an excuse not to forgive.." Other words.. don't be a stumbling block. Wanna be a supposed "manogawd"? Keep your hands and privates where they belong.. not matter WHAT. NEVER shake down your congregation for even a tithe.. Don't SELL your rituals.. or religion.. they will turn into snake oil if you do..

Actually, they didn't. Look at Uriah's father in law. He wanted david under the path of a steam roller.. along with not more than a few other relatives.. David made it by the skin of his teeth.. and maybe a TAD of grace. these other overbearing, overdemanding religious con men.. they probably survive only with dumb luck..

Probably the same thing happens even in times of peace. Con, lie to, steal from underlings, "fraternize" with enough of their wives, a general just MIGHT find himself face down in the same predicament.. and all the staffers likely would have an alibi at the time of his not-so glorious "departure"..

well, I hear that if mr "big shot" costs them enough lives and resources, he ends face down in a latrine somewhere.. it's called an old fashioned "fragging".

Some people around here.. one finds it hard debating with them that twi sold snake oil. "of course they didn't sell it. they just accepted *donations*.."