Ham

I kinda view like a "survivor" series, staged for SOMEONE'S "amusement".. maybe they think they are training these kids to be able to function in hard times, extreme circumstances. The only problem with this, the kids KNOW it's just a "drill".. they are often competitive enough to stick it out through the hazing, anticipating the million bucks at the end of the ride. Or position. Or supposedly shared power. Slap all of the christian veneer you want to on it, I think you are bringing out the worst in human nature and behavior. I imagine they'll play for part of the "training" old vic's advanced class 81 live teaching, how after receiving this great "revelation", if you don't kuckle under, the world's gonna try to buy you out, intimidate, smear, and if all else fails, finally try to get the government to put you six feet under.. wouldn't suprise me.

Guilty as charged brother.. but I don't call them LEGITIMATE. I'm SUPPOSED to be some kind of "elder" in the "church", am I not? I'm pulling out the wild card here. Tough "crappies" as they say.. They know exactly who I am. That being said, I don't hate them. Far to the contrary.

That would suggest to me that they don't exactly want the general public to know where it is at.

I don't think you can have the "phenomenal" growth that der way had in the sixties and seventies, using the same methods, WITHOUT THE SAME CONSEQUENCES. The legalism and austerity you build in your structure will eat you alive..

The real disappointment, at least to me, I see part of their justification of this as a contrived method to "move" a sluggishly growing ministry. Why? Are you comparing yourselves among yourselves, looking to the Indian counterpart that SEEMINGLY is getting "results" head and shoulder above YOU? "We oughta be seeing the same kind of results.." "it HAS to work.." Really? I view it as trying to fix an old "problem" with the same old tools. a "sense knowledge" endeavor where by God, God's will be done and we'll see to it.." attitude. Ten kazillion people really are a "problem" that you DON'T want to have.. What are you going to do with them? Oh.. we'll have to ORGANIZE.. twigs, branches, limbs.. Personally, I think that if indeed you DO have growth, the kids who will be doing the actual work don't need to be taught to be "extreme", but to LOVE.

maybe when I have the proper clue that I've gotten through the "right" person or persons.until then, there's a sour feeling in my stomach about this. I'd like to see a little bit of intelligence, REAL qualifications, and accountability, from those who RUN the thing. Not a huff of arrogance. "We's too GOOD to need edjycation.." I'd like to see the "point man" just plain GROW UP a little bit.. I asked questions NICELY, three times.

I wonder what they've promised the inductees if they live through a year and a half of hazing.. it's like.. it's the price of being on the top tier of the club. It's the way grandpappy did it.. the way pappy did it.. that's the way it's ALWAYS been, right? SOMEBODY has to break the cycle of spiritual abuse.. I echo these sentiments...

I suggest the stated intent was flawed to begin with. I think they are starting on the same foot. How can it then be any different? A lot of the programs were slipshod nonsense to begin with.. Before the big bait and switch, the corpse was supposed to somehow produce MINISTRIES. It was like a fraternity- live through the hazing, stick it out.. and you're in the "in" crowd.. Some good people came out of it, but what did the corps REALLY produce? I saw several otherwise normal human beings turned into bitter, arrogant mog wanabes who thought they could spot spirits under a rock at forty paces. Thought they knew the bible better than the rest of the civilized world. Some I knew came out feeling ENTITLED to sit as leadership, or judge.. and you'd BETTER listen.. Some brought the same kind of harshness, bullying and hazing they were exposed to to the people on the field who supported them. I think it was momentus, on steroids. It's the same old slip-shod operation. "Let's just get things a going, then we'll figure stuff out.." What happened to the "more abundant life being in the DETAILS"? Too busy for something so trivial I guess..

I think if a *real* spirit sat up and said "boo".. they'd end up in the emergency room somewhere.

I wonder if they feel "entitled" to give others the same treatment they got..

I would agree.. if the kids could actually have part of and ownership in the "community". As it stands, the old faarts can boss them around, and if they buck against the insanity, send them packing any time they want. Where is the community in THAT? I was promised that headquarters would always be "home" of sorts for me. Nowadays, for me to "go home" would be akin to trying to break INTO a medium security prison.. The kids would be better off in a commune.. in my opinion. Or go for a little trip on the magic bus..

Any update Twinky? Just wonder how the little rascal is doing..

I'd rather go on some kind of journey in life.. why sit around sucking one's thumb, constantly assessing if everything lines up with vic's way of thought..

Only three votes? maybe this is just too crazy..

kinda looks like a dog chasing it's own tail, does it? I can understand why they do it. It's "security".. like an old worn blanket, that a toddler has bonded to, and refuses to relinquish.. you may point out the many holes, molded food, and gaping errors to the toddler, but it makes no difference. It's... "blankie".. fifty five year old toddlers can appear rather disgusting.. I think it might take practically a miracle for them to break free.

Yep.. and supposedly to be administered or coordinated by a "young man" who barely past the stage of growing peach fuzz. What are they thinking? What if a volunteer gets hurt? They really don't have the resources to steamroll them like they did in twi. Even a fifty page itemized signed hold harmless agreement won't save them, if proven negligent. From what I see, they have: NO professionally trained staff not even someone who can render first aid.. no one trained as to know psychologically what they are doing to the recruits.. Not a SINGLE person on staff with a master's degree, in ANYTHING.. Only one with a bachellor's that I am aware of.. NO oversight. Zero accountability. I guess... well "they" say, "work will set you free".. I think if successful, they'll run cff into the ground.. if that's where the "leaders and workers" will be "sent".

I think I've got all of the possibilities covered..

I wonder how many here have been on the "wrong end" of a supposed exorcism.. you know.. the other person flailing their hands, invoking the name of the lord.. only that.. well, sorry.. there's no daimon here.. discerning of spirits? Ha.

Yep, that's the one! Hey, at least they had fun in their old rusty bus.. err, most of them... umm, the ones that didn't end up in a county mental ward somewhere or something.. well, who's to say they didn't have fun too..

Shroyer did say he had a few "issues" with "doc" over "putting teeth (and "accountability") in da love of gawd.."I can almost hear him rolling over in his grave a whole state away. when it doesn't "work", I think they'll turn rather abusive.. I don't think JP is a naive as he lets on.

Naw, couldn't be. Just too plain simple.. Why is it easier for some to believe the incredible.. Ya know, if gawd actually dictated plaf to him like some would have us think.. then aren't they making gawd out as a plagiarist? The last time I read the bible, I noticed even God himself cited his sources..

What's even more creepy.. there are people who still have little meetings behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms, eating pickled pigs feet, busy figuring out how to carry out the master plan of "mein fuhrer".. in a way. That's the mind picture I have of some offshoots. I think some have sacrificed their life, libery and conscience to the degree that they can't even consider that the vicster could have possibly been just plane WRONG. That's not even an option. I don't think they could come to terms with the kinds of "works" they performed in the mogster's behalf.

This is a rather famous bus. The Smithsonian actually wanted to induct it..

That rusty old truck doesn't have anything on this beastie:

I emailed him. Really. I said the above quote except in nicer terms. My take on it- he's not REALLY aware of the abuse in the system they're trying to resurrect.. or even of the potential for abuse. The over the hillers around him are above recrimination, "honorable" counsellors, one and all.. There is no qualified staff there that I can tell. I couldn't even guarantee that any of them know first aid. I feel in my spirit that at least one "staffer" REALLY has more than a potential for abusing his authority in the situation. Add to this, the claim UP FRONT is that an enrollee may be summarily dismissed by staff, and sent home at any time.. It's VERY troubling, to me. So they'll make these kids run the gauntlet, work their rearsies off.. and at the end have a piece of paper they'll despise in thirty years.. that MAY open the doors to a "career" flipping burgers somewhere.. though it may very well be some kinda soy product..