Ham

Not true. I know and met both boy and pappy.. they might not want to admit to it now..

George, you very well may have that "opportunity" Somebody, actually a dear friend asked me "what would you do if you found that everything you believed to be wrong?" It was just a step along the way.. in my case it may have not been fraught with some of the hazards that others were exposed to.. if another were to examine my life, they might not agree.. it seems every step has been a step of deception.. at least I'm aware of it.

I think in a practical sense, it's "the word of gawd (as WE understand it) is da will of gawd.." No supposed contradictions, or errors.. in OUR understanding anyway.. add to this, those of different beliefs supposedly "logically" come to their conclusions as well. "We" can't find a trinity anywhere in the bible, "they" seem to see it everywhere..

Frogs in ponds.. Groucho, their offspring aren't any better either. Now they have the little underlings digging yet another pond in the mississippi mud.. if I could have twelve volunteers who would work for hot dogs and millet.. I'd have a farm up and running in no time..

and.. the purity of the teaching of the teacher doesn't rise above his hypocrisy, either.. if vic's version of redemption was SO poweless, I don't want it. I'd want something that actually WORKS. so far, all I've heard for vic are EXCUSES. Excuses to be a drambuie guzzling, womanizing (pretty mild as to the truth) abusive sonofabitch.. and let's bring it back to the subject of the thread.. the founder of a system based on an abusive hierarchy, demanding far more of his subjects than he himself could even dream of giving.. I'd like to see HIM forced to hitchhike accross country, with a fiver, or twenty in his pocket.. and come back with it on time or else.. I'd like to see HIM put together a class on the field.. I'd like to see HIM sit quietly while the mogster in charge goes on a profanity laced drunken rage.. too late for that, I'm sure. :)

*checks armpits* *snnnniffffffff..* I dunno, speak for yourself.. as far as hypocrisy goes.. I think the "uber conquerer, all nine all the time" claim is the height of it.. I dunno.. is redemption THAT powerless? So helpless, that a man experiences it, and goes on, just as evil, or worse than before? For some, redemption's only valid use is an excuse..

I dunno.. I don't ever remember the literature advertising they'd with almost any method practicaly attempt to turn an otherwise normal human being into a hard-hearted, conscionseless goose-stepping waybot.. willing to face unreasonable hazards in the guise of believing.. AS ADVERTISED it looked like a summer camp to get in shape, learn critical thinking skills and learn how to enjoy the bible..

If you knew that, you wouldn't be lost. :)

I remembered this post by Watered Garden, on this link Perhaps after you were there..

I dunno. I think I hit the little reset button.. Anybody else here wake up one morning with the perception everything we were taught was plane WRONG? :)

I think they used the "good guys" all along.. I'll admit, there were some REALLY NEAT people, whom I had the utmost respect for at the time, but that came at a price, experiences with loudmouthed, arrogant mogster types After the good guys were run off, I observed that there wasn't really any real reason left to listen to the abuse..

The Lord. I think of the years I went through the drill.. it just seems this ultra uber method of studying the bible.. and studying, and studying more, the same thing, year in, year out.. for a lot of people was not much more than a contrived method to attempt to force spiritual growth, pretending to be what one was not. Endlessly following procedure, gotta know everything one can know by the five senses, lest the Lord give you nothing.. endless lists of definintions, of manifestations, which outlined exactly how the Lord was gonna do the job.. then by the odd chance one DID get something, often it got lost under a pile of analysis, checking "what's the profit".. checking to see if it fit the definitions.. I was a walking concordance.. and it's still there, about 70 percent or so. but what good did all of that do? I think we were part of a new kind of "Christian" phariseeism.. a lot of us practically memorized "the law".. it just seems.. if the Lord wants one to hear his voice, I don't think He exactly needs that kind of assistance in the matter. If anybody is "lost".. it's not Him..

I can see it.. "let's see YOU chop and stack firewood, pull stumps and be able to stay awake through another four hours of senseless drivel, bucko.." "don't want to work? well you know what they say- no work, no eat.."

Hey, if it is in an isolated area as it looks.. whole weeks, or even months might pass, and who would know?

I would agree. I think they broke some people's trust to the extent they will never "get over it".. It's worse than getting conned out of money..

Yeah.. I remember the 93 special.. food started out ok, but as the week went on, they started serving mystery meat and gravy.. I thought it tasted lke filet of old shoe, a friend commented on how it remarkably resembled dried liver.. I thought, "didn't we PAY for this?" At the time, I thought that just PERHAPS they had mismanaged the thing to the extent they would run into the red if they continued to put out good meals.. I imagine someone will chime in about the Indiana campus.. they raised chickens, all kinds of stuff that ended up exclusively on the mogster's table.

I dunno.. I think we all came from the light, and to the light we must return..

I dunno.. sometimes I think.. ya know, if he has all of the answers.. he's the one who has to reach ME.. not the other way around.. :)

Yes. They sent me to Michigan, as a wow in 1977. I have stayed here since. Can I "go home".. no. I can visit if I want, but actually go home? No. It's not as bad as it may sound.. but I'm not *really* home.. but I can't really go home either.. does that make any sense?

right before I left- I saw a guy who had a damn good job at a mattress company in Indiana, and a really nice home.. abandon his life and livelihood because der vey told him so.. they were "corps".. supposed to be at der masta's beck and call.. they came to "podunk" Michigan. the couple took it out on the area here.. like you wouldn't believe. Who in their RIGHT mind would abandon a 50K a year job, with retirement, benefits.. while having six kids to feed and provide for.. in their right mind.. finally went on staff at the Indiana campus. but how long did that last.. it's no longer there. Before they left.. they squeezed the area for every last dime they could get.. hope it was "sweet" fellas..

Next item. You'd THINK that they would be open, honest, straightforward about this supposedly godly adventure.. why does just a LITTLE light of day make them run it further underground? Why are just a few honest concerns met with silence? I believe they think I wouldn't like the answers. Perhaps they are following the example of the parent organization. Glad to keep us informed of eveyrthing from pea soups to nuts.. may as well.. looks the same in every other way..

I wonder.. why else would they change the rules, requirements, expectatations on the fly.. unless they KNEW people wouldn't sign if they knew what they REALLY were gonna do? it would be like taking the big executive position.. sign a contract written in sand, and finding yourself cleaning parking lots and hosing out rather nasty dumpsters.. I know corps that experienced something like this. but it didn't happen overnight. It was one little "insignificant" change in the contract at a time..

I think the "payoff" for the training received to go work somewhere else was nil. Intentionally, or unintentially, they made it so. Where is one to go outside of der vey? It's not like you graduated with a real, verfiable degree.. but you've more than paid for one. Some people paid twice over or more. The only place the paper meant anything, was in the organization. And the paper could be stamped "void" at any given time. Nobody had any real ownership in the organization. So on a person works.. striving, lest their little piece of paper be set at nought. The conditions keep getting piled up.. and someone with a few brains who could be doing something FAR more useful finds themself cleaning the parking lot on the way in to the office.. and you'd BETTER get all the oil spots. what's really pathetic.. some of those guys who left or were booted are still at the same game.. they're like the levite in judges, going on the road, trying to shake some sustenance out of the bushes.. I know some who would go from $58,000 a year and a cushy job in hq to not being able to hold down a job at McDonald's. The plan? Pretty obvious- a lifetime of christian servitude. Generally, people treat their mule better..

didn't want that to get lost in the shuffle.. :) I view the new "corpsie" adventure in the same light. I think they are trolling for whoever they can find that will blindly follow orders, do *whatever* it takes to "move da ministry".. can learn how to properly smooze der manogawd, and look good in a suit and tie besides.. after they turn them on each other a dozen times or so, they'll find out who's who.. the number three comes to mind. That's probably about all they'll have left by the end of the year. If even that.

Ya, there was a "plan" alright. I call it "trolling for wolves". with few exceptions, by the time I left, they managed to retain the top one percent consisting of the most arrogant, blindly following orders, mean, nasty, ultra-competitive I'd run over my grandma if she got in my way going to "twig" people you'd ever seen.. whether they MADE them, or if that was their character to begin with. Take this as a compliment- I think you guys who left or were booted likely just weren't quite the right material.