Ham

And notice, a complete outsider has access to information about staff, curriculum.. even phone numbers, hours of operation, etc., etc...

No, he didn't offer. I doubt they have ANY brochures.. or detailed information.it's what you would normally expect though, wouldn't you think? Yeah. He shouldn't have advertised it on the web.. I think he has a public relations nightmare on his hands.. has a sketchy nebulous program, a here am I, chop my firewood and build my farm attitude, at least as far as a reasonable person might perceive.. has a website a fifth grader could design, and a disposable email address for contact.. no phone numbers, no addresses.. no details about who's on staff.. their qualifications, credentials.. it just SCREAMS for inquiry.. Here is one of their "competitor's" web pages.. notice the "few" differences.. http://www.wisconsinumc.org/camps/#

Yeah, I agree. I tried that first.. If v2p2 is the p.r. man, he has failed miserably.. "listen ham, I understand your concerns. I'll send you a brochure that outlines what our new program is all about, has details about staff, what we expect to accomplish.." "anything else I can do for you?" Isn't that what one should reasonably EXPECT to hear? Instead I get a huff of arrogance, something about an elder and all shouldn't be asking direct questions like this.. criminy.. what's he want, a hearty "thatta boy" and a pat on the back like the rest of his "qualified" advisors are seeming to give him? Offering a "service", they are a PUBLIC entity, are they not? It would seem they would think they owe SOMEBODY some accountability.. apparently not me. When I get a huff of arrogance and then silence before the thing even leaves the starting gate.. it's like a red flag to a bull.

I won't contest that. The screws loose part that is. what makes YOU such a bargain? As far as my perceptions are concerned, I went to the source FIRST. "This really looks to me like you are trying to resurrect a slip-shod, abusive and controlling environment.. are you gonna use the "we can send you home any time we want" clause as some kind of threat when they don't measure up to YOUR standards?" "Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.. that's why I'm asking YOU, bucko.." Plus a half a dozen or so other relevant questions. like who are the board answerable to.. what are their qualifications to run something like this.. There is no real advertised curriculum. What are you gonna do, just make it up as you go along? Honestly, I think the boy can't get a real job with a bachellor's in history.. the kid hasn't been around the block even once in life yet. What the hell gives him the qualifications to run somebody else's life? Rocky seems to hold to the argument that "it's none of your business". Last time I checked, I'm SUPPOSED to be an elder in the same church he's in.. if that doesn't make it my business, I don't know what else will.

Thanks Paw They say good things often come in small packages..

I really am starting to think that cff and this little endeavor are married.. just had a little private ceremony.. at the very least they must be engaged.

Actually, it was a LEGITIMATE concern, and last-ditch effort to try to get SOMEBODY to wake up from their delusion of godhood style of madness. The "legacy" of the vey corps principles ended up being one of abuse and failure. It wasn't "just a couple of rotten apples". By resurrecting it, "junior" and gang get everything that goes with it. Too negative you say?

Not true. I know and met both boy and pappy.. they might not want to admit to it now..

George, you very well may have that "opportunity" Somebody, actually a dear friend asked me "what would you do if you found that everything you believed to be wrong?" It was just a step along the way.. in my case it may have not been fraught with some of the hazards that others were exposed to.. if another were to examine my life, they might not agree.. it seems every step has been a step of deception.. at least I'm aware of it.

I think in a practical sense, it's "the word of gawd (as WE understand it) is da will of gawd.." No supposed contradictions, or errors.. in OUR understanding anyway.. add to this, those of different beliefs supposedly "logically" come to their conclusions as well. "We" can't find a trinity anywhere in the bible, "they" seem to see it everywhere..

Frogs in ponds.. Groucho, their offspring aren't any better either. Now they have the little underlings digging yet another pond in the mississippi mud.. if I could have twelve volunteers who would work for hot dogs and millet.. I'd have a farm up and running in no time..

and.. the purity of the teaching of the teacher doesn't rise above his hypocrisy, either.. if vic's version of redemption was SO poweless, I don't want it. I'd want something that actually WORKS. so far, all I've heard for vic are EXCUSES. Excuses to be a drambuie guzzling, womanizing (pretty mild as to the truth) abusive sonofabitch.. and let's bring it back to the subject of the thread.. the founder of a system based on an abusive hierarchy, demanding far more of his subjects than he himself could even dream of giving.. I'd like to see HIM forced to hitchhike accross country, with a fiver, or twenty in his pocket.. and come back with it on time or else.. I'd like to see HIM put together a class on the field.. I'd like to see HIM sit quietly while the mogster in charge goes on a profanity laced drunken rage.. too late for that, I'm sure. :)

*checks armpits* *snnnniffffffff..* I dunno, speak for yourself.. as far as hypocrisy goes.. I think the "uber conquerer, all nine all the time" claim is the height of it.. I dunno.. is redemption THAT powerless? So helpless, that a man experiences it, and goes on, just as evil, or worse than before? For some, redemption's only valid use is an excuse..

I dunno.. I don't ever remember the literature advertising they'd with almost any method practicaly attempt to turn an otherwise normal human being into a hard-hearted, conscionseless goose-stepping waybot.. willing to face unreasonable hazards in the guise of believing.. AS ADVERTISED it looked like a summer camp to get in shape, learn critical thinking skills and learn how to enjoy the bible..

If you knew that, you wouldn't be lost. :)

I remembered this post by Watered Garden, on this link Perhaps after you were there..

I dunno. I think I hit the little reset button.. Anybody else here wake up one morning with the perception everything we were taught was plane WRONG? :)

I think they used the "good guys" all along.. I'll admit, there were some REALLY NEAT people, whom I had the utmost respect for at the time, but that came at a price, experiences with loudmouthed, arrogant mogster types After the good guys were run off, I observed that there wasn't really any real reason left to listen to the abuse..

The Lord. I think of the years I went through the drill.. it just seems this ultra uber method of studying the bible.. and studying, and studying more, the same thing, year in, year out.. for a lot of people was not much more than a contrived method to attempt to force spiritual growth, pretending to be what one was not. Endlessly following procedure, gotta know everything one can know by the five senses, lest the Lord give you nothing.. endless lists of definintions, of manifestations, which outlined exactly how the Lord was gonna do the job.. then by the odd chance one DID get something, often it got lost under a pile of analysis, checking "what's the profit".. checking to see if it fit the definitions.. I was a walking concordance.. and it's still there, about 70 percent or so. but what good did all of that do? I think we were part of a new kind of "Christian" phariseeism.. a lot of us practically memorized "the law".. it just seems.. if the Lord wants one to hear his voice, I don't think He exactly needs that kind of assistance in the matter. If anybody is "lost".. it's not Him..

I can see it.. "let's see YOU chop and stack firewood, pull stumps and be able to stay awake through another four hours of senseless drivel, bucko.." "don't want to work? well you know what they say- no work, no eat.."

Hey, if it is in an isolated area as it looks.. whole weeks, or even months might pass, and who would know?

I would agree. I think they broke some people's trust to the extent they will never "get over it".. It's worse than getting conned out of money..

Yeah.. I remember the 93 special.. food started out ok, but as the week went on, they started serving mystery meat and gravy.. I thought it tasted lke filet of old shoe, a friend commented on how it remarkably resembled dried liver.. I thought, "didn't we PAY for this?" At the time, I thought that just PERHAPS they had mismanaged the thing to the extent they would run into the red if they continued to put out good meals.. I imagine someone will chime in about the Indiana campus.. they raised chickens, all kinds of stuff that ended up exclusively on the mogster's table.

I dunno.. I think we all came from the light, and to the light we must return..

I dunno.. sometimes I think.. ya know, if he has all of the answers.. he's the one who has to reach ME.. not the other way around.. :)