Ham

You do realize Kesey wrote a significant portion of that book under the influence of Peyote, didn't you? I wonder what the vicster was smoking..

I think if they are going to sow the same kind of harshness in their organization, or affiliates, it will rot them from the gut out.

I wonder if they require one to hitchhike to the Tetons adventure.. take a ten dollar bill, and make damn sure you arrive there with it, and still have it when you get back home.. what's a few toes.. or worse. It's just the abundant life we're talking about ya know.. :unsure: I asked that joker "who's qualified" for a few good reasons, I think. The sad thing, I think they actually can rustle up a half dozen kids to play their little "survivor" game.. I wonder how much insurance they have..

I thought this little thread might have some relevance to the "sowers" discussion..

I thought they had some kind of memorial on grounds in his honor.. maybe I'm mistaken. Anybody know?

twenty grams of vitamin C really does the trick.. it takes about eight hours to get the full benefits though. Swelling gone.. infection wiped out. the tablets don't seem to do it. About twenty grams of powder, dissolved in water works, providing one can choke down something so dastardly sour.. then it takes a few hours for it to go to work.

If you can handle the acid, about twenty grams of vitamin c might do the trick.. some people gastrointesinally "blast off" with that high a dose however.

gasp, wheeze..

Well.. gotta give a LITTLE credit. They say what state and county they are in..

Here's one of their competitors. http://www.christinthetetons.org/index.asp...eAction=COMPANY I would call that an "extreme" adventure. Notice full disclosure. Phone numbers, hours of operation, etc. etc. compare: http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx No names... no phone numbers.. only contact is through a disposable email address. "Well, we don't do things like the world does.." That's pretty obvious.

Small perhaps, but they must have a plan. Or maybe it's a pt barnum tactic: "hurry now, hurry now.. only room for the twelve specially chosen.."

Here's another one: http://www.christinthetetons.org/index.asp...eAction=COMPANY I would call that an "extreme" adventure. compare: http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx where would you take YOUR kid? If my kid had to chop and stack firewood and herd farm animals at camp, even given a "scholarship" to go there.. I'd be p#ssed..

And notice, a complete outsider has access to information about staff, curriculum.. even phone numbers, hours of operation, etc., etc...

No, he didn't offer. I doubt they have ANY brochures.. or detailed information.it's what you would normally expect though, wouldn't you think? Yeah. He shouldn't have advertised it on the web.. I think he has a public relations nightmare on his hands.. has a sketchy nebulous program, a here am I, chop my firewood and build my farm attitude, at least as far as a reasonable person might perceive.. has a website a fifth grader could design, and a disposable email address for contact.. no phone numbers, no addresses.. no details about who's on staff.. their qualifications, credentials.. it just SCREAMS for inquiry.. Here is one of their "competitor's" web pages.. notice the "few" differences.. http://www.wisconsinumc.org/camps/#

Yeah, I agree. I tried that first.. If v2p2 is the p.r. man, he has failed miserably.. "listen ham, I understand your concerns. I'll send you a brochure that outlines what our new program is all about, has details about staff, what we expect to accomplish.." "anything else I can do for you?" Isn't that what one should reasonably EXPECT to hear? Instead I get a huff of arrogance, something about an elder and all shouldn't be asking direct questions like this.. criminy.. what's he want, a hearty "thatta boy" and a pat on the back like the rest of his "qualified" advisors are seeming to give him? Offering a "service", they are a PUBLIC entity, are they not? It would seem they would think they owe SOMEBODY some accountability.. apparently not me. When I get a huff of arrogance and then silence before the thing even leaves the starting gate.. it's like a red flag to a bull.

I won't contest that. The screws loose part that is. what makes YOU such a bargain? As far as my perceptions are concerned, I went to the source FIRST. "This really looks to me like you are trying to resurrect a slip-shod, abusive and controlling environment.. are you gonna use the "we can send you home any time we want" clause as some kind of threat when they don't measure up to YOUR standards?" "Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.. that's why I'm asking YOU, bucko.." Plus a half a dozen or so other relevant questions. like who are the board answerable to.. what are their qualifications to run something like this.. There is no real advertised curriculum. What are you gonna do, just make it up as you go along? Honestly, I think the boy can't get a real job with a bachellor's in history.. the kid hasn't been around the block even once in life yet. What the hell gives him the qualifications to run somebody else's life? Rocky seems to hold to the argument that "it's none of your business". Last time I checked, I'm SUPPOSED to be an elder in the same church he's in.. if that doesn't make it my business, I don't know what else will.

Thanks Paw They say good things often come in small packages..

I really am starting to think that cff and this little endeavor are married.. just had a little private ceremony.. at the very least they must be engaged.

Actually, it was a LEGITIMATE concern, and last-ditch effort to try to get SOMEBODY to wake up from their delusion of godhood style of madness. The "legacy" of the vey corps principles ended up being one of abuse and failure. It wasn't "just a couple of rotten apples". By resurrecting it, "junior" and gang get everything that goes with it. Too negative you say?

Not true. I know and met both boy and pappy.. they might not want to admit to it now..

George, you very well may have that "opportunity" Somebody, actually a dear friend asked me "what would you do if you found that everything you believed to be wrong?" It was just a step along the way.. in my case it may have not been fraught with some of the hazards that others were exposed to.. if another were to examine my life, they might not agree.. it seems every step has been a step of deception.. at least I'm aware of it.

I think in a practical sense, it's "the word of gawd (as WE understand it) is da will of gawd.." No supposed contradictions, or errors.. in OUR understanding anyway.. add to this, those of different beliefs supposedly "logically" come to their conclusions as well. "We" can't find a trinity anywhere in the bible, "they" seem to see it everywhere..

Frogs in ponds.. Groucho, their offspring aren't any better either. Now they have the little underlings digging yet another pond in the mississippi mud.. if I could have twelve volunteers who would work for hot dogs and millet.. I'd have a farm up and running in no time..

and.. the purity of the teaching of the teacher doesn't rise above his hypocrisy, either.. if vic's version of redemption was SO poweless, I don't want it. I'd want something that actually WORKS. so far, all I've heard for vic are EXCUSES. Excuses to be a drambuie guzzling, womanizing (pretty mild as to the truth) abusive sonofabitch.. and let's bring it back to the subject of the thread.. the founder of a system based on an abusive hierarchy, demanding far more of his subjects than he himself could even dream of giving.. I'd like to see HIM forced to hitchhike accross country, with a fiver, or twenty in his pocket.. and come back with it on time or else.. I'd like to see HIM put together a class on the field.. I'd like to see HIM sit quietly while the mogster in charge goes on a profanity laced drunken rage.. too late for that, I'm sure. :)

*checks armpits* *snnnniffffffff..* I dunno, speak for yourself.. as far as hypocrisy goes.. I think the "uber conquerer, all nine all the time" claim is the height of it.. I dunno.. is redemption THAT powerless? So helpless, that a man experiences it, and goes on, just as evil, or worse than before? For some, redemption's only valid use is an excuse..