Ham

I wonder how the underlings are expected to address the one in charge.. "the wittle itty bitty boy of gawd for our day, time and hour.." "the successor to his holiness".. and nametags. Will they have a proclivity to an over excessive use of nametags? Can't chop firewood without a name tag ya know..

and he LOVED the titles. Even in his dialog, he had characters call him "doctor" or "a man of god". I'm flabbergasted that people actually still refer to him as "doctor". I think they would call him "God" if they could get away with it..

Eventually, these meddlers will have their nose in every aspect of your life. Such as: 1. How you raise your kid 2 What kind of work you should do 3. see your bank records.. to "help" you of course. 4. Have you submit a weekly plan, when you will go grocery shopping.. which "believer" you will be going with.. and don't EVER deviate from the plan.. 5. Don't forget. They will need to know how often and when you are having sex with your spouse, provided you're married and all.. 6. And don't even THINK of buying a car, or a house, or anything "major" without their "input".. 7. Oh yes.. you'll be "busy". Miss a few meetings, and somebody will think something is "wrong" with you.. 8. You'll volunteer the use of your house, if you have a nice one, for classes, fellowships.. 9. You'll have the "honor" of being "requested" to clean leader's houses, babysit the kids.. 10. If you're on staff, you will be forbidden to have a "serious" pet, such as a dog, a cat.. and don't think of enrolling your kids in karate, or similar extracuricular activities. You'll be forced to live in a trailer or cheesy dormitory, and have virtually little or no privacy.. etc. etc... If I didn't see half of this myself, I'd think it was a work of fiction.. about half of that list was life in the way when I left in 96. As a supposed VOLUNTEER. a couple of years later, life in the way WAS the list.. I think they rolled back a LITTLE on a few items on the list.. But it all started as a nice little bible meeting..

I've heard people excuse vic's plagiarism by saying "well, if it was such a BIG DEAL, why didn't Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon and Bullinger publications, etc, etc, take action? It MUST NOT have really hurt their feelings or something.." Who says it didn't hurt? I wonder how Leonard felt, seeing his life's work cut and pasted by a second rate con artist.. he was well aware of the raw copying that was going on. I think he felt legal remedies to be more distasteful than the issues they would correct. So be it- that perhaps was his belief. The real objection I have with the vicster's raw copying, and not giving any credit or documentation- it made him out to be what he was not. A scholar. An innovator. One who by isolating himself like a monk, and after years of toil and study- single-handedly came up with something which had a remarkable resemblence to other scholars works. I think it's hypocrisy at it's worst. He actually got on stage, and said something like "you have it easy- you don't KNOW the kind of junk I had to go through to get this.." sheesh..

I think the participants are being asked to compromise themselves, far more than any possible benefit garnered would justify. What are those in charge willing to put on the table? Seems rather one-sided.. Without an established connection to a much larger organization, I would say they have little to offer. Or any grounds to recruit.. Where are they going to have these "leaders and workers" "go forth"? I wonder if the "survivors" are guaranteed a position in an organization "somewhere"..

It would be nice, wouldn't it? :) To me, they all smell like twi, to one degree or another. I think 99 percent of their certainty is based on a self generated illusion.. despite claims of having the power of God, along with the bold boasting that goes along with the claims, I have not seen anyone live their normal, day to day life any different than anyone else. No mighty healings, no mighty miracles. Some "results" I've seen them claim are due merely to the benefits of having a higher education, or having just plain dumb luck at times. Or the results of being connected with the community. I think MOST churches won't just let a person just walk in the door, and be a REAL part of the fellowship anyway. They may greet one with a smile, and open arms, but there are many requirements, many agreements to be made.. it's almost like one has to leave their real self at the door when they go inside, to one extreme or the other.

It might be a small question, but who are "we"?

I wonder how many offshoot teachers and writers really take this seriously.. the real originator of the work very well may only need to show a remarkable similarity to their own work.. "honestly officer, it wasn't mine.. I was just holding it, yeah, that was it.. I was just holding it, for a friend.."

Plagiarism is practically a one way ticket out of any higher instution of learning. It's also practically a one way ticket out of any "real" job or profession. They don't really care to characterize motive as selfish, lazy, self-serving, or just a "simple" mistake.. I'm not picking on you Jeff, but find it odd that some can find a supposed valid reason for it when it comes to religion. Why do some think that context somehow changes the rules? The same rules apply to those who use pfal as a source.. legally you must not only cite your source, but you also must cite your sources sources. That is perhaps the hardest part of avoiding plagiarism. Anybody who produces a whole book, or set of books without a single works cited page are not really doing a student or another writer a favor. I don't know how good a defense it would be to claim, "well, HE didn't cite Bullinger, or Kenyon, or Leonard, or Charles Welch, or.." To do any SERIOUS, reputable bible "research", I think one would have to abandon these works which heavily relied on plagiarism.

In the mean time, I'm sure a dozen or so emails might get his attention..

interesting.. a half a dozen other posters came to the same conclusion..

once I get caught up after finals in a coupla weeks perhaps.. :) why is it though, I could almost hear my emails being passed from desk to desk.. I'll find out I guess..

Wouldn't that be a round about way of saying "some" or even "the vast majoity" is indeed "God-breathed"? Interesting he puts his product on the same "social status" of Calvin, Wesley, Grahm, Luther, Roberts.. the idea that a man by his own efforts can study and plagiarize his way to being an authentic "manogawd" is ludicrous to begin with..

did you take any of their classes? their series of classes is about eighty five percent or more the same basic material as vic's foundational, intermediate, advanced. one thing different though, they have more than one teacher. While that eliminates one central authority figure, I still think they are basically lock stepped. I think they have so much emotionally invested in twi, that they really can't take an honest look at the doctrine. I'm not suggesting that they are bad people. What REALLY troubles me, is not a "kind, gentle organization" that just wants to "move da word", but the kid who seems to be trying to spearhead a return of the old corps program, along with it's austerity and elitist attitude, who regards pfal as his heritage- he's a product of their training program. I don't think he has even half a clue about the evil "gramps" practiced.. I think they raised him up to think vic was some kinda mythical character, who slew the bible in twelve sessions, and thinks it was the few rotten eggs in the old ministry that caused all the trouble. The leaders of cff are among his counsellors.. So I wonder. Is he rogue, off on his own adventure, or are they supportive of this "new'" program? Where are these new "leaders and workers" going to be sent? These are a few issues I'd consider and ask about before getting involved with the group.. :)

You might want to read page 14 and 15 of Garage Sale.. Kesey's "encounter" with Lou Costello is at the least hilarious..

so was twi, before the vicster got to "train" a few storm troopers.. 15. Would you really recommend a session of harsh treatment as a road to spiritual success? 16. How many kids from your organization are involved with this madness.. And maybe the biggie.. 17. Why does the kid think that all the "bad stuff" was just because of a few rotten apples.. why does he feel history is irrelevant.. that those who hurt are just "bitter".. why is he not really aware of the consequences of gramps beliefs and actions? Didn''t you teach him ANYTHING? well.. a few more questions, anyway.. I've got more where those came from.. :)

9. How many of your "clergy" were ordained or certified by an independant, reputable school of learning, besides YOU or the Way? 10. How do you feel about old "doc" vic, not really being a "doc"? 11. Plagiarism issues.. are you aware that the "heritage" he "left us" was largely stolen? How do you feel about that? 12. How can you reconcile a belief that he was somehow a monogawd, with his history of documented abuse and evil? 13. Why would you allow a supposed prophet or something fawning over him publically, that what he has was due to da manogawd.. knowing full well the appropriate answers to question 10, 11, 12.. 14. Do you really have a memorial to vic on grounds? well.. these are the kind of questions I might ask, if I wanted to get involved with an offshoot..

I'd like to see their "official" stance on the new corpsie thingy.. 1. What do you REALLY think about it.. 2. Is it something you'd recommend for young folks to enhance their "ministries" or whatever.. 3. How do you feel about an essentially young, egotistical (or ego pumped) UNPROVEN, not even around the block once in life yet person supposedly coordinating it.. 4. Do the "graduates" have pretty much a guaranteed "function" awaiting in your ministry.. 5. Are you on the board among the "kid"'s advisors? Did you just kind of agree, "well, if it's da will of gawd..." 6. YOU "trained" him.. is he "functioning" within the guidelines of his "training"? 7. Why do you put his link on the top of the list on your site? 8. Do you agree with Mc*M**en's thought that the property of der vey is "holy" ground, that the powers that be are holding hostage? I read a page once on his internet site.. his high estimation of way property supposedly held captive by those who rule.. 8. if he's the one really running it, don't you have at least a few concerns? well.. just a few thoughts anyway. :)

You do realize Kesey wrote a significant portion of that book under the influence of Peyote, didn't you? I wonder what the vicster was smoking..

I think if they are going to sow the same kind of harshness in their organization, or affiliates, it will rot them from the gut out.

I wonder if they require one to hitchhike to the Tetons adventure.. take a ten dollar bill, and make damn sure you arrive there with it, and still have it when you get back home.. what's a few toes.. or worse. It's just the abundant life we're talking about ya know.. :unsure: I asked that joker "who's qualified" for a few good reasons, I think. The sad thing, I think they actually can rustle up a half dozen kids to play their little "survivor" game.. I wonder how much insurance they have..

I thought this little thread might have some relevance to the "sowers" discussion..

I thought they had some kind of memorial on grounds in his honor.. maybe I'm mistaken. Anybody know?

twenty grams of vitamin C really does the trick.. it takes about eight hours to get the full benefits though. Swelling gone.. infection wiped out. the tablets don't seem to do it. About twenty grams of powder, dissolved in water works, providing one can choke down something so dastardly sour.. then it takes a few hours for it to go to work.

If you can handle the acid, about twenty grams of vitamin c might do the trick.. some people gastrointesinally "blast off" with that high a dose however.