Ham

I really think they should add the podcast with one of the former trunk coordinators here to the curriculum.. required for those who run it, and those who volunteer.. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/...stees-1987.html go ahead fellas.. click on the link, you won't get possessed or anything.. It's just a little story about a bunch of authoritarian, legalistic, demanding, insane "leadership", who basically ran amok unchecked.. especially so after they ran anybody out who was honest about what was going on. Why, some of them just MIGHT be coming to "instruct" in your little program..

Thanks Ralph.. still, it gave me a sick feeling seeing a closer look at what kind of "ministry" I was actually supporting at the time.. just pass the immodium..

I used to have the book. I think even John Lynn wrote something in the book.. so, it's been what.. over two decades, and where are the writers today? Most of them have passed pretty much into obscurity, W*lter and the Rh*eard's included.. some of them were victims of the momentus and personal prophecy debacle in the church.. the dancing pres was forced to move off to lesser employment.. what happened to Crouch? The supposed expert in figures of speech? It's like.. these were the best twi had to offer, then, or at any subsequent time.. what happened?

corps were required to "retemorize" a bunch of those "literal" and "expanded" thingies, were they not?

Coming face to face with an ordained madman by loy, a limb coordinator and later region coordinator who had a third grade mentality, an apparent maximum of a fourth grade education, some bizarre beliefs about not eating bread and vegetables, so as to avert gastrointestinal disaster, a strange opinion that water could somehow be sparked together so as to make water and energy, delusions of grandeur, megalomania and outright poor judgement, yet ironically, somehow had a quite intelligent "fox" for a wife.. whom I don't have a clue of what she saw in him, nor why she would want to willingly donate to the cause so as he could contribute to the established gene pool.. probably a marriage made by the loyster himself. Or the couple who came before them, who insisted on selling stuff local believers basically gave them, back to the local believers.. I think between those two things, I didn't have much of a problem seeing what what the "ministry" had become. Does that answer your question?

What I'd like to know.. what happened to Walter? His name appears on a google search, about page five or so, and the reference is to here, GSC.. if one keeps going down to about the twentieth or so page.. doesn't say, but he SEEMS to be affiliated with K*n P*tty (not the rocker).. He is a smart guy.. I know he has a degree in mathematics.. taught himself Koine Greek, if I remember correctly. It's almost like he disappeared into obscurity. Who knows.. maybe that's the way he wants it.. my opinion, in his way days, he was a "songbird" ole vic could put on stage. I'm not slighting him. I think his intelligence, voice, and even perhaps genuine care was taken advantage by herr vicmeister. I think he was one of the few, that his education and credentials were in the vicster's hands, and the vicster chose not to entirely crush them. "well, your education is more important. let's just forget about this god biz in this one specific circumstance.." I don't think he had the heart to crack the whip at hq like the vicster.. I remember it getting him into trouble a time or two..

I thought we were supposed to include little illustrations from Shakespeare and Chaucer..

I think the real issue that speaks for itself, is that can reasonable and intelligent folks who practiced these supposed truths can judge for themselves- did it WORK? You know. REAL, TANGIBLE bonifide, verifiable right down where one lives RESULTS? That was what was promised by the way.. No fluff, no pie in the sky when I die.. so you got the front parking spot at wally mart.. "wow.. I'm cookin today.." what about the fifty other times you had to walk from the back lot? I dunno. I think that kind of spirituality is rather shallow and immature. I think it is a brand of spirituality which is most easily practiced when one is lucky enough to be young, healthy, employed, or independantly wealthy..

I can see Juedes point though. If "believing" is so wonderful, what DO you need God for? I mean, well, He has to weigh in every once in a while to supposedly HAVE to energize your believing or something.. but I think the vey turned him into an impersonal, emotionless, holy "spook" who was only a RESOURCE. "God is BOUND to honor his word.." What's He get in return of all of this? Love? Fellowship? The JOY of having a "family"? Oh, I forgot. God is supposed to be spirit. Can't experience joy, love, fellowship, tenderness.. that's only for humans.. The mentality baffles me. It's almost like people think they are in the "God" game, and get dealed a royal flush every hand just because it suits THEM.. So I'll put the burden where I think it really belongs. "Where are the RESULTS?" Go ahead.. operate "the law of believing" with the supposed over 900 promises.. just for altruistic reasons. Let's see the hospitals cleaned out, the slums miraculously rejuvenated, etc. etc.. People play the game, claim they've got the winning hand.. let's see the cards.. :)

Sounds like it's almost time for j.l. to take the show on the road again.. a personal visit and a demonstration of personal prophecy in every "twig" in America..

Yep. His degree was in PRACTICAL theology.. and homiletics if I remember correctly. I think that they were unaware that they were training a monster..

and then, a "translation" or "version" is no better than the opinion, character, qualifications, or theology of the one doing the translating or revision. It might be a real, legitimate degree, but I really don't see how a Master's degree in homiletics qualifies one to be a textual critic, in multiple foreign languages. Add to that the "preclivities" of der manogawd.. along with the driving passion simply to have something "different" or "exclusive" that he would not have to "back up on.." that kinda would wreck one's subjectivity, would it not?

Justa bringing this one back to life for the newer folks around here..

Nice to see you cite your source. I still wonder why.. Paul cites Abraham, gives him credit for his story.. Peter cites Joel.. David.. You'd think they were so busy "moving da word" that they didn't have time to perform such a degrading task. Matthew cites Jeremiah.. why is that important? Hmm? I kinda look at it like.. it's so simple to do, it must be pure laziness to not cite one's source. "lotsa stuff" is pretty vague, general.. so God's not supposed to be in the business of handing revelation and the secrets of the world to lazy people.. add to that, vic was LAZY.. what's the logical conclusion?

The whole purpose of "witnessing" in way terms, is to convince oneself, is it not?

I mean.. what's the big deal? Why does one need to convince ME? I'd say more.. but it's probably the wrong forum..

And that's one trap I don't fall for anymore.. "well, are you doubting GOD ALMIGHTY? Surely HE can do so and so.." True. But it's not God Almighty who I call into question.. it's men. some people's logic, I imagine can't separate the two.. if one wants to be God, well.. let's see it. Go ahead.. BE God.. :)

I wonder if it's relevant to yet another thread.. there are some who own illegal copies of it.. think it's a heritage.. and even think that it's practically a God-given right for the third generation to hear it.. maybe it's like twice dead. Stolen, stolen property..

Oldies, I still say.. "where's the beef?" lotsa nice, pretty convoluted theology there.. but does it really WORK? Oldies, don't take it personally.. I'd ask anybody the same question. let's see the works.. not rumors about them in a land far far away.. True, I doubt. Well, what can one expect.. I'm a product of da vey international.. :)

I dunno.. Asuming one considers the bible to be the word of God, even God himself cites himself when he quotes himself.. "it is written, in the book of.." or "that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet.." Peter supposedly by "revelation" cites the book of Joel, Psalms.. even Paul cites his reference to the promise to Abraham.. in regard to seed and seeds. but a half-baked huckster is somehow above the law of the land, not to mention God's law..

I don't entirely agree. Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth. I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker.. The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc.. it looks so "scholarly".. so precise.. but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?" I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it. It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise. And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..." "OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?" :) It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.

That's only the half of it. It seems "some" are going as far as attempting to resurrect his supposed life and "ministry". they regard the class and vic's cut and paste theology as some kind of inheritance, a hidden treasure. I honestly can't see how the same dogma and methods will produce any different results..

What else didn't I know.. the forced abortions, shoved down people's throats, paid for by MY abs.. ANY kind of lawsuits. Before Waydale. Whether der vey was plaintiff, OR defendant.. that the vicster died of cancer, which he labelled as spirit possession, until years after I left the organization.. the rote plagiarism that the founder practiced.. what really happened to the people who disappeared in the night, and were labelled "possessed".. that they put an incoherent, incapacitated corps volunteer on a BUS.. by himself, and sent him home in such a manner.. I think the organization wasn't being "personal" about covering up a mountain of this kind of stuff.. I think they are like other organizations like them.. "it's just BUSINESS.."

And there is always is the possibility that the parents are actually nice, warm hearted, good people.. wouldn't be the first time they used nice, warm hearted, good people to suck people in the organization..

I personally didn't know about this particular lead accident, until over twenty years after it happened.. I didn't know about the guy loy drove to suicide, either. I didn't know how der vey basically stole the Rh*ard home when they were summarily booted.. I didn't know about all the injuries sustained by partipants in various way programs either. I didn't know about the serial sexual abuser in Alaska until years after the fact.. I didn't know the dancing pres was requiring females to submit to his sexual desires, on the "job site", as part of the condition of employment.. and that his personal secretary, one of his "favorites", worked to keep a supply of women coming his way.. Nor did I know about the vicster's "activities" in the motorcoach, which the upper ups were well aware of, until YEARS after the fact. Long after I left in 1996. All that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I only found out about these "incidents", only after being out of the way for a few years. If that's not a cover up, I don't know what defines one. It was a system, with no, or little accountability.. I don't think their lack of candor was a matter of "that da dumb ministry be not blamed".. it was more like "that the abs might not turn lame"..