Ham

Nice to see you cite your source. I still wonder why.. Paul cites Abraham, gives him credit for his story.. Peter cites Joel.. David.. You'd think they were so busy "moving da word" that they didn't have time to perform such a degrading task. Matthew cites Jeremiah.. why is that important? Hmm? I kinda look at it like.. it's so simple to do, it must be pure laziness to not cite one's source. "lotsa stuff" is pretty vague, general.. so God's not supposed to be in the business of handing revelation and the secrets of the world to lazy people.. add to that, vic was LAZY.. what's the logical conclusion?

The whole purpose of "witnessing" in way terms, is to convince oneself, is it not?

I mean.. what's the big deal? Why does one need to convince ME? I'd say more.. but it's probably the wrong forum..

And that's one trap I don't fall for anymore.. "well, are you doubting GOD ALMIGHTY? Surely HE can do so and so.." True. But it's not God Almighty who I call into question.. it's men. some people's logic, I imagine can't separate the two.. if one wants to be God, well.. let's see it. Go ahead.. BE God.. :)

I wonder if it's relevant to yet another thread.. there are some who own illegal copies of it.. think it's a heritage.. and even think that it's practically a God-given right for the third generation to hear it.. maybe it's like twice dead. Stolen, stolen property..

Oldies, I still say.. "where's the beef?" lotsa nice, pretty convoluted theology there.. but does it really WORK? Oldies, don't take it personally.. I'd ask anybody the same question. let's see the works.. not rumors about them in a land far far away.. True, I doubt. Well, what can one expect.. I'm a product of da vey international.. :)

I dunno.. Asuming one considers the bible to be the word of God, even God himself cites himself when he quotes himself.. "it is written, in the book of.." or "that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet.." Peter supposedly by "revelation" cites the book of Joel, Psalms.. even Paul cites his reference to the promise to Abraham.. in regard to seed and seeds. but a half-baked huckster is somehow above the law of the land, not to mention God's law..

I don't entirely agree. Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth. I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker.. The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc.. it looks so "scholarly".. so precise.. but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?" I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it. It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise. And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..." "OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?" :) It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.

That's only the half of it. It seems "some" are going as far as attempting to resurrect his supposed life and "ministry". they regard the class and vic's cut and paste theology as some kind of inheritance, a hidden treasure. I honestly can't see how the same dogma and methods will produce any different results..

What else didn't I know.. the forced abortions, shoved down people's throats, paid for by MY abs.. ANY kind of lawsuits. Before Waydale. Whether der vey was plaintiff, OR defendant.. that the vicster died of cancer, which he labelled as spirit possession, until years after I left the organization.. the rote plagiarism that the founder practiced.. what really happened to the people who disappeared in the night, and were labelled "possessed".. that they put an incoherent, incapacitated corps volunteer on a BUS.. by himself, and sent him home in such a manner.. I think the organization wasn't being "personal" about covering up a mountain of this kind of stuff.. I think they are like other organizations like them.. "it's just BUSINESS.."

And there is always is the possibility that the parents are actually nice, warm hearted, good people.. wouldn't be the first time they used nice, warm hearted, good people to suck people in the organization..

I personally didn't know about this particular lead accident, until over twenty years after it happened.. I didn't know about the guy loy drove to suicide, either. I didn't know how der vey basically stole the Rh*ard home when they were summarily booted.. I didn't know about all the injuries sustained by partipants in various way programs either. I didn't know about the serial sexual abuser in Alaska until years after the fact.. I didn't know the dancing pres was requiring females to submit to his sexual desires, on the "job site", as part of the condition of employment.. and that his personal secretary, one of his "favorites", worked to keep a supply of women coming his way.. Nor did I know about the vicster's "activities" in the motorcoach, which the upper ups were well aware of, until YEARS after the fact. Long after I left in 1996. All that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I only found out about these "incidents", only after being out of the way for a few years. If that's not a cover up, I don't know what defines one. It was a system, with no, or little accountability.. I don't think their lack of candor was a matter of "that da dumb ministry be not blamed".. it was more like "that the abs might not turn lame"..

Nope, no brochure. I don't think I'd get one even when they do have it done.. Another thought.. why don't the kids just join the army, or the marines.. or something.. the big difference- you make it through basic training and service, there are a few honest to God benefits. The military actually has something to OFFER and individual- if one chooses to take advantage of it. There are time limits now, but a veteran has alll kinds of goverment assistance in regards to a college education. You might not get rich at it, but they actually PAY you for your time in service. A lot of people get some real job skills- where they can go into telecommunications, or construction, or lots of other trades after leaving the military. What are these kids going to do? Go door to door witnessing? I still think they are teaching them how to live in poverty..

then I guess we will see what we will see.. :) Maybe the parents acttually grew up.. who knows..

I see a smile on that "beastie".. cats can be rather intuitive.. wow.. 19 years old .. better listen to him.. :)

I dunno.. I think he wanted to think he was the man he wasn't..

Interesting.. I've gone back to a free wheelin.. wouldn't call it hippie exactly.. I'd get on the bus.. but it's far too late.. I think we all were born too late. :)

I lost count of my questions.. I'll start on twenty three.. 23. Can the "enrollees" have as much as a cell phone, to communicate with those in the outside world? 24. Will cell phones even WORK as far out in the boondocks as the the farm is where they will "reside"? 25. What about television? Cable TV? Satellite? Will they have access to what's "really" going on in the world, but only world events as the "master" "spiritually" interprets them? 26. why in the friggin *^&*@# aren't you back getting your master's degree.. 27. Assignments upon graduation. Are they REQUIRED to be accepted? Or can a graduate just go their merry way, onto college, or into a profession? or is all of this.. how the "system" failed the "founder".. "I got's mah degree, and it didn't do me a hill of beans.." I have a pretty big void here.. I'd like something better to fill it with..

Interesting. Considering that "they" (the parents.. and most everyone else involved in the way) have been threatened (ahem, "warned") to stay off the internet.. i.e., no surfing, no playing around on the net.. if you really need something there, get on, then get off- AS SOON AS POSSIBLE- because that it's a possible conduit to possession- I'd have a few questions. I'm not being accusatory.. consider it food for thought.. What is the young lady even DOING there? Are the parents aware that she is seeking a connection with someone on the "infested with devils" internet? If so, do they approve of this? Or not? If not, what would they say? apparently she is eighteen years old, still living at home.. is it possible.. they are looking for someplace for her to go, ANYWHERE? I'm just saying.. or rather asking. :)

I dunno. I saw a report about a polygamist in Australia, he had something like thirteen wives.. the locals were pretty "cool" about it, for the most part. "Well, if that's what they wanna do..".. one guy said with a chuckle.. "I pity the poor bastard.. thirteen mothers in law."

Socks.. It makes me wonder.. why did in this rare occurence the vicster happened to refer to Bullinger, he did so as suggesting Bullinger was a second rate source? That's the way I understand his reference in the class.. "there is one man who listed and collated most of these figures... didn't really take the field of figures of speech to it's ultimate" or some such nonsense.. the best I remember anyway. What's up with that?

Repeated self-hypnosis.. I wonder if speaking in tongues "like a house afire" and running retemories through one's head, all the while covering the ears and saying "I'm not wistening" qualifies..

I don't think it actually "makes more sense". Perhaps it is more plalatable than other beliefs. I think of vic's theology more as spiritually immature, sugar coated nonsense which goes down a tad easier than other perhaps more down to earth theologies. Providing one is young, healthy, and employed. But it causes more problems than it seems to solve. If you have "God in a Box", and things go really wrong, then there are more holes in the dyke than one has fingers to plug them.. vic's one size fits all positive informercial has a few problems. What happens when people fail to get the positive results that one asserts they can have. It appears to be a nice package, but where are the results? When was the last time someone walked in and miraculously cleaned out a hospital ward.. or walked on water.. or raised the dead? Or what happens when one gets sick, bankrupt, divorced.. broken down mentally..? One has to explain why, providing one claims they have "God in a Box".. On one hand, results are guaranteed.. on the other, no results are guaranteed.. "real life" is bad advertising. How many did loy slander and defame.. vic too? One guy who died- loy claimed the debil got him because he worked in such a "dark place" as Home Depo..

As far as cff, not the last I knew of. I believe cff's stance was that we should support those who "labor in the word".. no real heavy burdens laid on people.. but that's cff, or was cff The new thingy though, with vic extremism "pfal is our heritage".. where gramps is the kid's hero.. if they sow that kind of extremism into offshoots, I can see it coming.. I wonder how many of these "honors students" have anything more than a high school diploma..

Yep. That was me.. what can I say- "It's a living"