Ham

Yep.. never satisfied. One could put together hundreds of classes.. run multitudes through vic's "believer factory".. clean leader's houses, save a "leader" hundreds of dollars by running a phone and fax line to his office, oh.. not for ministry purposes, but for his BUSINESS you find out later. Babysit the kids.. set up the meetings. clean, clean, clean.. donate AV equipment for classes and meetings, and take an hour off work to be able to arrive early, not to mention, continue to hold a second rate job at which they didn't give a DAMN where you had to run off to an hour early..as long as you can *live* and still fork over 15 percent, cue the tapes, all this, with a smile, and without any renumeration, and LITTLE thanks.. no time for "vacations".. and still, it isn't enough. I don't know who was fruitier, me or them..

Why.. why indeed. Is it possible that some people can NEVER be satisfied? Of course, it could bring to question the mental stability of those running the place as well..

Too bad he didn't hold himself and the underbelly of twi to the same standard.. I don't think it was about the "integrity of the word" being attacked. Naw.. what was it REALLY about? well.. is it possible, that if told the truth of the matter, people might come to a logical conclusion that they were flim-flammed by a huckster, who didn't believe a single plagiarized word of what he preached? along with an awareness that the *men* who came after him, were no better? If you havent' confronted one of these mog types up to their necks in adultery and or substance "problems" , you haven't really lived life yet.. I remember getting one of the "little guys" by the ear.. didn't know it at the time it was so rampant up in the ivory tower.. "growwwer, hissssss.. don't you DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESSSSSSSSS" no kidding..

It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*.. along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups.. aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?

When they started fishing around for something as "harmless" as a "mission statement", to define how they are different than the rest of the world, I could see trouble coming.. along with statements like "well, the PURPOSE of our meetings isn't to socialize, have fun.. a person can find THAT out in the WORLD.. we're here to LEARN the WORD.." As far as having a mission statement- why bind one's own hands, or God's, to begin with? "THIS is what we do.." What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT? It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..

The old "vic would be so proud.." claim, wouldn't that make as much sense as upon opening a soup kitchen for the poor, the workers there would assemble and proclaim "and Doctor Capone would be so proud of our efforts, seeing his legacy continue to live in the third and fourth generation.." You bring up a good point though. What actually IS it that they think they are *doing* that ole vic would be proud of? Wallowing and getting caught up in the momentus debacle, and the resulting egotism, arrogance and power struggles? Subscribing to every lunatic fringe belief they could find, in search for something "unique" to offer their flock? What about the personal prophecy fiasco, and resulting "sue me, sue you blues"? Hmm. Maybe that's what the "non-denominational" claim is about.. trying to bury their old association. But it isn't exactly honest, is it? I mean.. they draw material from the old ministry, sing the same songs.. play the same music, have practically identical "worship" services along with a certain number of tongues with interpretation and "prophecy", which in all likelihood, would sound remarkably similar or even identical to what one would hear in a modern vey "household" meeting.. plus they have "power of gawd" classes, in which one can EASILY see the material from old vic's classes carefully grafted in.. the old ministry may be an unwilling partner in "the church".. but isn't it obvious that the way IS their denomination? Plus, every "denominational affiliate" just HAS to have a shrine of sorts dedicated to der "manogawd" who taught us "der verd".. CES practically puts it on the front page of their internet site. Or at least one can observe it isn't hard to be found. I'll ask I guess.. what about cff? I'd imagine they have a shrine somewhere on grounds dedicated to the vicster.. please tell me if I'm wrong.. :)

The last words.. hmm. I found myself face to face with a madman, with far more problems than I could even dream of having.. "just tell us, what's wrong with you.." "hmm. well, I'll think about it. I'll get back with you." "Duuuuuhhhhhh, okay..." those were the last words.

I saw the interview with Gracie.. she and Abbey Hoffman were invited to the white house.. what was it she said.. about 200 micrograms would have been enough..

the "scary" part of it is we produce stuff like plutonium 239, which has a half life of something like 24,0000 years or so. About the same time things will be nice and warm again. Which means, the next time around we might find this little bit of Terra Firma habitable, we've got another whole set of problems to deal with.. unless whatever *we* are happens to have developed some kind of immunity to gamma rays and such..

or at least, get a personal prophecy for us..

When I got involved with der vey, I wondered if herr vicmeister partook of Hoffman's product.. One picture I saw of him.. I could almost swear his eyes looked like the pupils were dialated to the size of frying pans.. honestly.. I always wondered if he dropped acid.. there is one thing stronger though..

We've gone through something like seventeen meltings and ice age cycles so far. The last one was a mere 14,0000 years ago or so.. I wonder how many "civilizations" of whatever we are have thrived during the various warm times.. I think we're good for at least a couple more cycles, that is, before the sun burns off all the hydrogen.. they say when it starts fusing helium and heavier stuff, the accomodations here won't be quite as hospitable..

I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..

what's amazing, is that one of the major issues, the adultery issue, that was the REAL heart of what was all wrong in twi, was just casually brushed aside as something which could be "handled" with the proper renewed mind and such. Were they THAT blind? The facts would suggest so.. when things went "wrong".. along with the apparent lack of success of loy's classes.. they proceeded to look under every rock for the supposed cause, and initiated the loyalty purge, the infamous homo purge, then a budget and even a pet purge.. then an "unproductive evil people" purge, then a debt purge.. one purge after another, and with each action, the "ministry" still wasn't exactly "right". I wonder what it takes for someone to develop that kind of stubbornness, hard-heartedness, and unbelief.. One can see the seeds the vicster sowed along the way.. allusions to David, being the king, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.. the question and answer session at the end of cfas, when he couldn't say "thus sayeth the lord, adultery is WRONG.." along with hints that people need to lighten up in the sexual categories of life, so as to be able to minister better.. exhibiting pornography in church.. being "cool" enough to understand the slang words regarding sexual organs, reproduction.. along with warnings in the advanced class, how the lord was NOT in the business of giving revelation about what's going on in a leader's bedroom, providing it didn't "get out of hand" like with David and Bathsheba. I saw one of his personally trained "men" counsel a lady "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? It's not a BIG DEAL!!! Just loosen up, and get laid.." I think the reason it was for a few, is that he planted the seeds, and carefully observed by the reaction who would go for it, and who would resist. I think he OWNED the ones who took the bait.. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if I have personally abandoned God. I just refuse to try to define him with my small intellect anymore. Didn't exactly work before..

In other words, if you leave, you're "screwed".. if you stay, you're "screwed".. Groucho.. you're being too kind. forget the vaseline..

Well.. welcome Steveo. Can I ask, do you pronounce your name "Steve O" or "Stevio"? What instrument did you play in the band? I should introduce myself. I took the pfal class in 1974, it was coordinated by Richard Cunningham in West Virginia. Never knew how he turned out after all of these years.. went WOW in 1977 to Michigan, and stayed here ever since. Advanced class, 1981. God saved me from going corps..

I dunno. I think "Woofgang" might be cute..

I can almost hear their mental response to inquiry.. I would have asked it a long time ago as well, I'm sure. "what are YOU doing to move *da word*?" my response: "what the h*ll are YOU doing?" If someone thinks that to assemble a bunch of naive, fawning followers to chop their firewood, butcher their chickens, clean up their farm.. undergo an almost full year of hazing.. in exchange of the "privilge" to hear ole vic's offpring spout vic's material.. or god forbid, sit for hours and listen to bootleg tapes.. to be "moving da word".. they are.. for a lack of better description, in my opinion, NUTS.

It's refreshing to see yet one more person ask that question.. I saw one of them, a former staffer in twi, after being out for several years, abandon a REAL God given gift and profession, to go back on staff in an offshoot. gone.. from making a difference in the "real world".. back to "almost way world".. kinda gave me a sick feeling deep down inside. Then there's the new "survivor, vey corpse II" series. When I asked them what their qualifications I basically had the door slam in my face. I'd be suprised if any of them have even have Red Cross first aid training..

who wilfully separated themselves, and gave themselves over to perversion? I'd say those who stayed behind in a ruin of a "ministry".. and ran off anyone who wouldn't go along with it.. labelling them possesed or worse, raising SUSPICION about their character..Then there was the twisting of basic sound doctrine.. twisting plain warnings about adultery into a vague reference in the bible to worshipping other gods.. the scumbuckets stayed alright.. right where the cash flow was at the time.. Who separated themselves? Stayed around for twenty more years, distancing themselves from the "body" even more, year after year.. hiding out in a wooden "palace".. pretending to be, what they were not.. Who had a ruined conscience, as to think the staffer's wives OWED them a roll in the hay? You tell me. "from such turn away.." the goons just happened to own the key to the joint.. look where they are today.. their idea of "outreach" is to make a phone call to the lawyers..

really? it's been a walk of deception, for a long, long time.. what would you do, if you woke up one morning, and came to the realizaton that everything that you thought you believed was just plain wrong..

what about Ra*ph d's contribution in the book? something about the thirteen step downward in the "christian church".. culminating in "from such turn away.." I wonder who was the REAL subject, there.. interesting that one contribution there was.. appropriate. :)

Maybe, because it is relevant? and, maybe because there hasn't been exactly such an open public forum as gsc? what I see in all of this.. perhaps, just perhaps.. maybe the "good Shepherd" wants to lead us from a bunch of religious "hooey" into real callings and professions that he wanted us in for far too long. maybe he doesn't LIKE us meandering through life, playing the "God game.." I really loved his (paraphrased) statement to ces.. "well, fellas.. I'm off to get a life, somewhere, somehow.." something legitimate.. I've felt the same way. I can't pretend to be what I am not. There are STILL people with der vey mindset.. "whadya need a college education for, for christ's sake.. you could be out witnessing, doing miracles(?), doing the work of THE LORD.." I performed a "reverse" "reem job" on somebody who tried that on me.. relevant? You bet..

I'd like to know how he feels about that issue today.. I'd give him that much benefit of the doubt. If I understand it correctly, some people were practically to the point of jumping off bridges, in despair over losing "da word as it hasn't (supposedly) been known since the first century".. I think others were just far too invested in that nonsense. Where else is a gun-toting goon turned bus driver and keeper of da mog's secrets gonna find respect, adulation or even honest employment to begin with..