Ham

And this is the picture I see also. You'd think after driving at least one to suicide, and God only knows how many more to madness, you'd think someone who was rational or sane would get a clue..

Just one little thought.. isn't it rather convenient that they can both provide a sickness, and a cure, all at the same time? :)

just a little thougt. vic, loy and crowd cast quite a few stumbling blocks and snares right out in the open.. who bears the ULTIMATE responsibility, when someone "weak" falls? Now one can read the word "weak" a number of ways. I would call it "trusting". Trust, like one has towards one parents, as far as most families are concerned.. so they take someone who has this kind of trust, is humble, meek, and even loves them and passes the person between themselves like a prostitute.. Oldies, can't you really see the depth of betrayal here? it's like.. they didn't just cheat people out of a few bucks or something.. I suppose that would be bad enough as it is.. it wasn't exactly like the guy who sold me a quarter of an ounce of molded lipton tea for five bucks when I was a lot younger..

Sorry Rascal.. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else as weak. In fact, you're one of the last people I'd insinuate that of. :) Only point I am trying to make.. these charlatans don't have an excuse. Even IF people were weak. I've seen them try though.. "duh, well, it was the PEOPLE. THEY shoulda been spiritually mature enough to handle it, shoulda been this, shoulda been that.." It's like laying part of the blame of a con job at the feet of the "target" because they happened to be good natured and trusting..

I really think in God's eyes.. one lays out the traps, injures, maims, or drives "weak" people to suicide.. it's really the same as if they took out a 45, and pulled the trigger. Woe unto the man.. it's time to give him a cement life preserver about the neck.. doesn't say give part of the blame to the weak one. Doesn't fault the weak one for "immature thinking.." "lack of renewed mind.." How can one who is supposed to be some kind of spiritual hot shot turn a group of female staffers into a personal harem of sorts and not think it's sin.. and even go as far as to call it rejoicing in their "freedom" in Christ(?)..

I thought those on staff had a dream job of sorts.. near "the word".. a lot of people burned bridges to get there.. about a year before I left, I met with a lady on staff who I knew prior to going on staff. I said, "wow, you must be so *blessed* to be here.." It was the first time I got that severe of a reaction where I saw somebody's face go pale, and eyes roll up in their head.. and there was no joy left .. not like I remembered from five years previously. she basically sacrificed a profession to go there. Somehow, I had the illusion that those at der vey hq practiced the "be especially good to those in the household" routine. If one still believes the bible after all of this.. doesn't it say something like "woe unto him who offends (causes to stumble) one of these little ones.."? Note.. it doesn't attach blame to the one who stumbled.. or fell. Doesn't attach a minimal percentage of blame to the victim because of their weakness..

Whatever happened to John Desmond, does anybody know?

Yep.. never satisfied. One could put together hundreds of classes.. run multitudes through vic's "believer factory".. clean leader's houses, save a "leader" hundreds of dollars by running a phone and fax line to his office, oh.. not for ministry purposes, but for his BUSINESS you find out later. Babysit the kids.. set up the meetings. clean, clean, clean.. donate AV equipment for classes and meetings, and take an hour off work to be able to arrive early, not to mention, continue to hold a second rate job at which they didn't give a DAMN where you had to run off to an hour early..as long as you can *live* and still fork over 15 percent, cue the tapes, all this, with a smile, and without any renumeration, and LITTLE thanks.. no time for "vacations".. and still, it isn't enough. I don't know who was fruitier, me or them..

Why.. why indeed. Is it possible that some people can NEVER be satisfied? Of course, it could bring to question the mental stability of those running the place as well..

Too bad he didn't hold himself and the underbelly of twi to the same standard.. I don't think it was about the "integrity of the word" being attacked. Naw.. what was it REALLY about? well.. is it possible, that if told the truth of the matter, people might come to a logical conclusion that they were flim-flammed by a huckster, who didn't believe a single plagiarized word of what he preached? along with an awareness that the *men* who came after him, were no better? If you havent' confronted one of these mog types up to their necks in adultery and or substance "problems" , you haven't really lived life yet.. I remember getting one of the "little guys" by the ear.. didn't know it at the time it was so rampant up in the ivory tower.. "growwwer, hissssss.. don't you DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESSSSSSSSS" no kidding..

It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*.. along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups.. aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?

When they started fishing around for something as "harmless" as a "mission statement", to define how they are different than the rest of the world, I could see trouble coming.. along with statements like "well, the PURPOSE of our meetings isn't to socialize, have fun.. a person can find THAT out in the WORLD.. we're here to LEARN the WORD.." As far as having a mission statement- why bind one's own hands, or God's, to begin with? "THIS is what we do.." What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT? It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..

The old "vic would be so proud.." claim, wouldn't that make as much sense as upon opening a soup kitchen for the poor, the workers there would assemble and proclaim "and Doctor Capone would be so proud of our efforts, seeing his legacy continue to live in the third and fourth generation.." You bring up a good point though. What actually IS it that they think they are *doing* that ole vic would be proud of? Wallowing and getting caught up in the momentus debacle, and the resulting egotism, arrogance and power struggles? Subscribing to every lunatic fringe belief they could find, in search for something "unique" to offer their flock? What about the personal prophecy fiasco, and resulting "sue me, sue you blues"? Hmm. Maybe that's what the "non-denominational" claim is about.. trying to bury their old association. But it isn't exactly honest, is it? I mean.. they draw material from the old ministry, sing the same songs.. play the same music, have practically identical "worship" services along with a certain number of tongues with interpretation and "prophecy", which in all likelihood, would sound remarkably similar or even identical to what one would hear in a modern vey "household" meeting.. plus they have "power of gawd" classes, in which one can EASILY see the material from old vic's classes carefully grafted in.. the old ministry may be an unwilling partner in "the church".. but isn't it obvious that the way IS their denomination? Plus, every "denominational affiliate" just HAS to have a shrine of sorts dedicated to der "manogawd" who taught us "der verd".. CES practically puts it on the front page of their internet site. Or at least one can observe it isn't hard to be found. I'll ask I guess.. what about cff? I'd imagine they have a shrine somewhere on grounds dedicated to the vicster.. please tell me if I'm wrong.. :)

The last words.. hmm. I found myself face to face with a madman, with far more problems than I could even dream of having.. "just tell us, what's wrong with you.." "hmm. well, I'll think about it. I'll get back with you." "Duuuuuhhhhhh, okay..." those were the last words.

I saw the interview with Gracie.. she and Abbey Hoffman were invited to the white house.. what was it she said.. about 200 micrograms would have been enough..

the "scary" part of it is we produce stuff like plutonium 239, which has a half life of something like 24,0000 years or so. About the same time things will be nice and warm again. Which means, the next time around we might find this little bit of Terra Firma habitable, we've got another whole set of problems to deal with.. unless whatever *we* are happens to have developed some kind of immunity to gamma rays and such..

or at least, get a personal prophecy for us..

When I got involved with der vey, I wondered if herr vicmeister partook of Hoffman's product.. One picture I saw of him.. I could almost swear his eyes looked like the pupils were dialated to the size of frying pans.. honestly.. I always wondered if he dropped acid.. there is one thing stronger though..

We've gone through something like seventeen meltings and ice age cycles so far. The last one was a mere 14,0000 years ago or so.. I wonder how many "civilizations" of whatever we are have thrived during the various warm times.. I think we're good for at least a couple more cycles, that is, before the sun burns off all the hydrogen.. they say when it starts fusing helium and heavier stuff, the accomodations here won't be quite as hospitable..

I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..

what's amazing, is that one of the major issues, the adultery issue, that was the REAL heart of what was all wrong in twi, was just casually brushed aside as something which could be "handled" with the proper renewed mind and such. Were they THAT blind? The facts would suggest so.. when things went "wrong".. along with the apparent lack of success of loy's classes.. they proceeded to look under every rock for the supposed cause, and initiated the loyalty purge, the infamous homo purge, then a budget and even a pet purge.. then an "unproductive evil people" purge, then a debt purge.. one purge after another, and with each action, the "ministry" still wasn't exactly "right". I wonder what it takes for someone to develop that kind of stubbornness, hard-heartedness, and unbelief.. One can see the seeds the vicster sowed along the way.. allusions to David, being the king, all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.. the question and answer session at the end of cfas, when he couldn't say "thus sayeth the lord, adultery is WRONG.." along with hints that people need to lighten up in the sexual categories of life, so as to be able to minister better.. exhibiting pornography in church.. being "cool" enough to understand the slang words regarding sexual organs, reproduction.. along with warnings in the advanced class, how the lord was NOT in the business of giving revelation about what's going on in a leader's bedroom, providing it didn't "get out of hand" like with David and Bathsheba. I saw one of his personally trained "men" counsel a lady "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? It's not a BIG DEAL!!! Just loosen up, and get laid.." I think the reason it was for a few, is that he planted the seeds, and carefully observed by the reaction who would go for it, and who would resist. I think he OWNED the ones who took the bait.. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know if I have personally abandoned God. I just refuse to try to define him with my small intellect anymore. Didn't exactly work before..

In other words, if you leave, you're "screwed".. if you stay, you're "screwed".. Groucho.. you're being too kind. forget the vaseline..

Well.. welcome Steveo. Can I ask, do you pronounce your name "Steve O" or "Stevio"? What instrument did you play in the band? I should introduce myself. I took the pfal class in 1974, it was coordinated by Richard Cunningham in West Virginia. Never knew how he turned out after all of these years.. went WOW in 1977 to Michigan, and stayed here ever since. Advanced class, 1981. God saved me from going corps..

I dunno. I think "Woofgang" might be cute..