Ham

unfortunately, his true character was rather well hidden. I sincerely believe the few of his yes men who knew, consented, and/or partook, and subsequently covered up, have as much blood on their hands as he did.. if not more. They are like a blight spreading over the land.. what they grow, poisonous and inedible.. makes one want to drop a life, a livelihood and profession, and go join an offshoot, doesn't it? one day I'll tell you how I REALLY feel..

Instead of posting a bunch of stuff and derailing yet another thread, I figured resurrecting this might be a little more appropriate and easier.. If one is on some kind of crusade, or "witnessing" campaign.. who should one choose to exemplify the "benefits" of what one claims- who should be the "poster child"? would one choose: Capone, the model citiizen, and advocate against violent crime, mayhem, and racketeering.. Jeffrey Dahmer, Chef Extraordinaire, and nutrition expert for the advancement of proper diets for all Americans.. then there's the victard.. model "minister" and family man, an example of intellectual honesty, self-control, and sexual morality for menogawd everywhere..

Don't get me entirely wrong though.. I wouldn't dream of arguing with the fact that the sun appears in the morning sky every twenty four hours. It's just, I wouldn't take the vicster's word on it alone, if he rose from the fountain and swore on a stack of bibles or something..

I may have come CLOSE to saying something like this. For my own personal life, I feel vic's sin and recklessness invalidates everything I learned from him in pfal, all the seminars and stuff.. why? If it is sooooo wonderful, how come didn't it have a lick of effectiveness in the moral fabric of the guy who supposedly came up with it? "Conversion" or "new birth" in his own words is supposed to be a life CHANGING experience.. other men have come from corruption, lives of crime.. and claimed "change", and.. LIVED UP TO IT. but vic, was he "illuminated"? I don't think so.. I think he merely found enough light to try to SELL. I honestly don't think he even believed that there really is a God to begin with.. I think his "voice from heaven" and snowy gas pumps story was merely a falsehood and part of the scam.. otherwise, if he REALLY had an experience with the Almighty, he wouldn't lay his filthy hand on one single sister in christ.. not one. I wouldn't believe the claim that the sun is guaranteed to rise every morning based on his word.. I'd have to hear it or experience it somewhere else.

Hmm. I wonder what would happen if OSHA paid them a visit.. plus I wonder about the legality of trade of labor for *free* room and board.. Naw, I wouldn't wish that on them. I may be concerned, but I'm not hateful or vindictive or anything..

I really think they have delusions of grandeur.. Do they REALLY think they are running a modern-day "school of the prophets"? I really don't think these guys could "prophecy" their way out of a wet paper bag..

Yep.. who taught them "how to work".. even with "free" room and board.. I'd imagine it's not exactly Hilton quality accomodations.. millet and hot dogs three times a day.. who knows.. even with a slightly better menu, didn't they used to call something like that slavery? Work to do, extreme "adventures" to go on.. like they say.. "work will set you free.."

Ya know.. der vey taught that "spirit is thicker than blood".. I've been looking for that kind of connection with other "beings" like me all of my life.. maybe it's just all an illusion.. maybe it's just not there. came close, once.. :)

I just wonder.. when WOULD you think of those *men* as monsters? What would it take? suppose your own mother, or wife, or sister, or niece.. came home from "church camp".. absolutely crushed to the core.. "touched" by the "manogawd"s" hand.. passed from one mogster's bed to another.. they aren't exactly sure how it happened.. but the head honcho tried to justify it with scripture, and threats.. and the betrayal sent one to the "loonie bin".. and another to suicide? And you know these folks.. they were bright, intelligent, and cheery one moment.. full of life and hope.. goals in life.. the next, they are either sullen, terrified and depressed, or plain gone from the world.. would THAT have an impact on who you deemed a "monster"? I'd like to remind you.. those SISTERS in Christ, they are supposed to be like family- SUPPOSED to be like brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins.. maybe that's too much to ask another human being..

Good point WW..If I may add: In Physics class, if the teacher is an idiot, the students suffer though perhaps not irreparably, and the Pysics teacher gets canned. If he or she is bad enough, it's not likely they will get a similar job, anywhere. In a "bible class", or denomination, if the teacher is an idiot, or a womanizer, or an abuser of the students or church members in one fashion or another he gets fired. But no problemo. Just start one's own brand of religion in a cornfield somewhere.. I don't know about you, but the savagery, insanity and despicible actions of the "teacher" (and that can be questioned as well) negated anything I got out of it.. the "man" belonged in a straight jacket, not on a pulpit.. :)

A shock collar might be appropriate..

Screening process, hmm. Ever think that just possibly, it's designed to filter out those who won't put up with bull sheet anymore, or those who won't abs to their organization.. or have a few embarrassing questions? If they have REALLY changed, I'm sure they wouldn't mind answering a few of the questions I've presented here, if you would be kind enough to forward them along. They DO know who I am. I wasn't a real big hotshot or anything, but I've given them more than enough clues to know exactly who I am. Be forewarned, shiftthis. It may not go well for you.. in recent years, people in the way have been confronted with things they've posted here, some probably with things they haven't.

Brought back for a visitor here.. certainly relevant. OF COURSE they are "nice" now.. they've got a warehouse full of these things.. somebody's gotta sell them..

I wonder if this includes asking the "wrong" kind of questions, or calling those in charge to accountability for their actions.

I could rattle off over a dozen names of "leadership" who decimated whole areas at loy's bidding.. who are still involved. Six of them plowed the "work" here under trying desperately to find what was supposedly wrong with the ministry.. what was wrong? Is it possible that they were following a madman? loy sifted the corps like wheat.. are you telling me that they fired all of the loy wanabes and brought back the good guys they marked and avoided, and gave the bum's rush? This is just an honest inquiry here. I'm sure your leadership wouldn't mind answering a few questions. what about R*Ch#$ad and B*#bara O*ding? They tore into this area like there's no tomorrow.. took advantage of believer's trust, support.. and that wasn't good enough. They were hosts of the meanest, most foul-mouthed loudmouthed sessions (I won't call them twigs or such) with believers here.. they left the area with maybe six "standing" believers out of about fifty or so.. are you telling me they've fired them, put them out of the ministry? Not allowed to come to "twig"? Must be, if they've "weeded out" the scum.. Or what about Ch**s Gr*M&*ic? he kindly sat with me and my now ex and explained how he'd have to SEPARATE us to get whatever the supposed "truth" we were hiding from him he'd do it.. looking for what was supposedly not causing "the word" to move like it oughter in our area.. this half educated (way corps) bufffoon couldn't figure out that he was following a madman, and trying to sell a madman's unsellable product. he ran off over fifty percent of the people who really cared around here.. So are you saying that they've FIRED him from his hotshot position, thrown him and his family out of the ministry? Or is he STILL a region coordinator? What about the current staff and directors at hq? How many subscribed to loy's reign of terror? Have they been FIRED, and are no longer welcome at way functions? Only thing I can say, I'd look a little closer to see which side of the screen one is really on.. :)

I saw some kind of documentation on it. I think the numbers are for real, about the one in twenty five or so who can't really experience remorse, or guilt. I've met a few. One I know of can't feel remorse even over the experience of getting caught in wrongdoing. vic's theology seems to suit some of them rather well.. the "I'm righteous and heaven bound and all hell can't stop me from going.. regardless of what I do or say about it".. hell my just might prove some of these guys wrong in their convictions.. sowy.. :)

I think he hijacked Timothy Leary's gig.. turn on, tune in, drop out of society basically. just a different drug..

I really don't know. I think that is a testimony to the tainted, plagiarized "inheritance" der "manogawd" left us. I believe the offshoots have not outgrown the incessant urgent "need" to be "different" from the rest of the body of Christ.. and it's like a drug addiction. They had the taste of a shortcut to being supposedly unique and "special" in the old ministry.. and they would do practically anything to get that feeling back again. I don't think it's about the bible as much as they would like to believe. I see the same feeling of superiority other groups offer, like the guys who claim the holocaust never occured, that they have some unique version of history which is the "greatest secret" since before WWI.. then there's the sellers of Kaballah.. "you too can know the secrets of the universe.." and the J.W.'s held to the "unique" position of being the 144,000 that would "make it".. What do they REALLY offer? I'm not being sarcastic as such.. it just seems to me that offshoots range from a "harmless" diversion, to manipulative, subversive, to abusive, to destructive. I can't think of single one where one can just be a "normal" human being.. without super powers one can summon up upon command.. "You can be a scientist, a lawyer, husband, father, etc., but REMEMBER.. you're NOT a such and such that is a *Christian* (i.e. church "member").. you are a CHRISTIAN (church member) who happens to be one of these.." Yep.. you've got super-human powers.. the "manogawd" said so. Better get "witnessing".. the last "teaching" I heard in one offshoot.. it was about how the liberals just don't control their minds like *we* do.. how spiritually "compromised" they were.. and all of those in the room had their heads bobbing up and down in agreement. Oh the pride.. that *we* happen to be those *privileged* to be *right*.. I almost felt like asking when they were gonna pass the Pepto Bismol.. :)

And this is the picture I see also. You'd think after driving at least one to suicide, and God only knows how many more to madness, you'd think someone who was rational or sane would get a clue..

Just one little thought.. isn't it rather convenient that they can both provide a sickness, and a cure, all at the same time? :)

just a little thougt. vic, loy and crowd cast quite a few stumbling blocks and snares right out in the open.. who bears the ULTIMATE responsibility, when someone "weak" falls? Now one can read the word "weak" a number of ways. I would call it "trusting". Trust, like one has towards one parents, as far as most families are concerned.. so they take someone who has this kind of trust, is humble, meek, and even loves them and passes the person between themselves like a prostitute.. Oldies, can't you really see the depth of betrayal here? it's like.. they didn't just cheat people out of a few bucks or something.. I suppose that would be bad enough as it is.. it wasn't exactly like the guy who sold me a quarter of an ounce of molded lipton tea for five bucks when I was a lot younger..

Sorry Rascal.. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else as weak. In fact, you're one of the last people I'd insinuate that of. :) Only point I am trying to make.. these charlatans don't have an excuse. Even IF people were weak. I've seen them try though.. "duh, well, it was the PEOPLE. THEY shoulda been spiritually mature enough to handle it, shoulda been this, shoulda been that.." It's like laying part of the blame of a con job at the feet of the "target" because they happened to be good natured and trusting..

I really think in God's eyes.. one lays out the traps, injures, maims, or drives "weak" people to suicide.. it's really the same as if they took out a 45, and pulled the trigger. Woe unto the man.. it's time to give him a cement life preserver about the neck.. doesn't say give part of the blame to the weak one. Doesn't fault the weak one for "immature thinking.." "lack of renewed mind.." How can one who is supposed to be some kind of spiritual hot shot turn a group of female staffers into a personal harem of sorts and not think it's sin.. and even go as far as to call it rejoicing in their "freedom" in Christ(?)..

I thought those on staff had a dream job of sorts.. near "the word".. a lot of people burned bridges to get there.. about a year before I left, I met with a lady on staff who I knew prior to going on staff. I said, "wow, you must be so *blessed* to be here.." It was the first time I got that severe of a reaction where I saw somebody's face go pale, and eyes roll up in their head.. and there was no joy left .. not like I remembered from five years previously. she basically sacrificed a profession to go there. Somehow, I had the illusion that those at der vey hq practiced the "be especially good to those in the household" routine. If one still believes the bible after all of this.. doesn't it say something like "woe unto him who offends (causes to stumble) one of these little ones.."? Note.. it doesn't attach blame to the one who stumbled.. or fell. Doesn't attach a minimal percentage of blame to the victim because of their weakness..

Whatever happened to John Desmond, does anybody know?