Ham

Actually, when I started lurking here, I found the cat fights rather refreshing. Some people could actually be honest for a change.

I'd like to see that question answered..

My opinion.. I think he gave us the PROBLEM, then sold us the CURE. Kind of like, "free beer". But the beer is poisoned.. the beer is free, but not the antidote.. and one dose of antidote won't really fix things.. have to take one class after another, give until it hurts. I think we were sold problems which we never really had to begin with. The sell was so effective, some here are still convinced that if it wasn't for der vey and the "greatness" of pfal and all, they'd be either dead, unsaved for eternity, or living a miserable existence on day after the next, spending life as a "homo", or God forbid, a trinitarian. They seem as convinced of the induced "problem" as they are of the manufactured "solution". When I was young, I didn't have any real problems that a little grief counselling and an education couldn't fix.

Considering some of the people who prayed that little prayer "gawd save me" were abused.. and "gawd" sent a sexual, criminal, deviant scumbucket to bring more abuse.. I would say the devil answers prayer as well. "b-b-b-b but, da man has such FAITH.." I've read something about how devils believe.. I really think the people the vicster actually "helped" didn't need help to begin with..

I don't think it takes a "critic" to judge the vicster's life. One doesn't need a fine education, years of training.. now something like fine wine, a classy theatrical production, perhaps one needs education and experience to evaluate the subtle nuances of the production. With the vicster's life, isn't the need of a "critic" overkill? Even a wino knows sour wine when he encounters it. It's just.. calling for a critic is kind of a waste of talent isn't it? It's like handing a world class wine taster a sample of a bad production of Gallo or something..

Maybe one could attach a few conditions to the prayer.. "God, send some one to save me. If he is a womanizing, abusive, plagiaristic, egotistical, arrogant sob who just wants to inflate his importance in history as only told by him, don't bother." :)

I can see the dialog from the seventy and eighty some crowd.. "for gawd's sake Martha, if you'd pick up your d*mn dentures, spectacles, and just read the book.. maybe you'd see the greatness of it all.." sowy.. it's just one of those evenings..

I can see it.. a whole army of fifty, sixty some year old"volunteers" going door to door witnessing for the greatness of stiffi.. doesn't this seem at least partly troubling to anyone other than me? Da way it was, da way it can be..

Maybe just a small question.. what the h*ll does he want from us? Maybe HE should go door to door witnessing.."hey mister, what would it be worth to know da word of god unlike it's been known since the first century.." "wouldn't you like some peace in life, prosperity? Healing? We can show you how.." Oh. He wants ME to go.. "Hey mistah.. how'd you like to know da word like it hasn't been known since the earth cooled? We have books.. one gawd, one lord.. and we even have resources to show you why bad things happen to good people.. we'll even show you how to be a prophet (ahem) prophecy.."" Shoot.. I have ALL KINDS of time.. sure.. I'd volunteer.. sheesh.

it's just.. I'd like to talk like a human being.. not having to coddle these poor souls with twenty King James references and references to old wayisms as to why we should be nice to each other before the grimace barely softens.. If I have to give them twenty reasons why I'm not inferior to them, we aren't anywhere near on the same page.. seems hardly worth the effort.

Yeah.. you'd think there is some middle ground. I was contacted by one of my friends from childhood.. I casually mentioned the fact that I didn't go to "twig" anymore.. and that was the last of any kind of communication I got. Unfortunately, "I'll drop the hostility if you drop the arrogance" doesn't work, yet.. not that I'm hostile, or anything..

plus the same old "exhortation".. "what are you DOING to move da verd.." gotta get busy busy busy to be able to forget all that insanity.. can't slow down long enough to reflect, or grow a conscience.. maybe that's the problem. He has too much time on his hands now..

I still think jl is trolling for a new source of self-importance and his long lost identity.. the money and the kids, well.. isn't all that supposed to be a GIFT to support one "who labors in the WORD among us"? or rather, one who doles out the vicster's stolen labors? It's almost like he's terminally ill.. or something.. and looking over the last forty some years, and.. were they REALLY worth it? His life and organization in shambles.. he doesn't command the respect he once had.. apparently he has some respect left from Schoenheit.. it looks like he let him publish his rambling on their web page. The phone very likely does not ring for advice like it once did.. The sadness is probably unbearable. So he goes along with the fictional account that we had the greatest "package" since the first century.. that we had the greatest "conjunction of TRUTH" ever known in the old defunct organization.. He still reveres and calls vic "Doctor".. says a lot to me. I think he needs help..

Plus he's probably quite disappointed "gawd" didn't give him a vic clone type to carefully groom, mold and form in vic's image.. like the other newer "organization". I wonder if they'd take him as a "trainer" of sorts.. probably not. They already have enough over-inflated ego to sink an ocean liner..

who is jl.. hmm. maybe.. Maybe an over the hill late experiencing midlife crisis mogster seeing his "dream" slowly dissolving right before his eyes.. I think when one tries bringing God into that equation, it's a small "problem".. still trying to reconcile why bad things happen to supposedly good people.. still trying to chalk up "negatives" in life to the devil.. recent developments would suggest that those who are the "elite".. the "chosen" are not exempt. I wonder how he feels about that..

I dunno.. it looks pretty troubling in my opinion. With this set of rambling, I think he's stopped just short of locking himself in a tower, and saying gawd would hold him hostage until stiffi gets the love and support that it oughter.. I think he has a few problems.. his organization is falling apart, and his identity along with it..

It looks to me like about the most disjoint, disorganized set of ramblings from jl that I've seen to date.. almost like one last emotional plea to put everything back the way it was once upon a time. I think he's kinda off kilter somewhere.. experiencing loss of identity or something..

The whole secrecy thing.. I suppose some of the motivation from the abuser was "now, you don't want to hurt da dumb MINISTRY now, do you? gawd will be upset.. " Oh no.. don't want some pseudo ministry blamed for anything. Don't want to hurt da people ya know.. they just wouldn't understand. Besides, they aren't spiritual enough to "handle it" like you.. and the "enforcers" of the "peace" turn out to be recruited among one's own brothers and sisters.. how manipulative. "Now don't tell.. ya know he'll get mad.. you know we're only supposed to talk about the bible.. where would we go anyway.." What I don't understand is how the mogster's grip hasn't relaxed it's grasp around their throats, for over two decades after his death. The "ministry" is DEAD. For the most part. What's the big deal? There isn't a "ministry" or a so-called mog's reputation left to save..

Interesting, isn't it. I read it here, somewhere in the documents. I thought, what's the big deal? I mean.. even a seven year old knows daddy isn't supposed to be sleeping in a bed somewhere with an alternate "mommy".. Sorry "Johnny".. we can't trespass on pa's "freedom in christ" to spread the seed, ahem, the word of gawd(?), ahem.." these people were (are) nuts.. it's friggin insane..

Frank, if I remember correctly, I think the scheduling of sex was just a corpse thing. Wouldn't surprise me if it hit the field with the last set of sycophants they unleashed though.. Isn't that kind of "odd" though, to intrude into one's personal life, no matter who they were, to the extent that you include IN WRITING your schedule of "personal time" with a spouse? Kinda bizarre.. I think they knew how far to push your buttons, and the possible consequences.. same for me. They got a nice polite.. "hmm. well, We'll think about it, and get back with you. That's it. Yeah. See ya sometime.." I don't think you would have been as polite..

Sending the vicster with a message from the almighty about how to live the bible.. it'd make as much sense as to send Evel Kneivel on a mission to improve the accuracy in performing motorcycle stunts safely..

really.. sending the vicster on an expedition with a message of truth and "right living" would make as much sense as sending Capone on a crusade for the improvement of law enforcement in america.. or sending J. Dahmer with a message for the right dividing of cuisine in every restaurant in the land.. good gawd..

I think the idea that the vicster had some kind of biblical from the hand of gawd "message" is a rather large assumption. in all fairness, I MIGHT hesitantly trust a coniving, adulterous pompous abusive sob to get a pizza order right.. and one chance at that. I wouldn't trust him with something as important as a life or death message.

Plus I wonder.. how many details were placed in the hand of your overseer's overseer. How much debt one had, how many times and when one had sex with one's spouse, how much is in the bank, etc. etc. Very personal information. I wonder if as they were considered a counsellor or advisor in the organization, one could bring criminal charges against them for violating confidentiality. They had the organization's stamp of approval after all.. I'd like to see them argue that before a judge.. "well your honor, he had debt. Therefore, he was a danger to himself and others. We had to tell.." I agree Java Jane, there seems there were two lockbox practices, one for the average follower, another for the mogster's sexual appetites and worse..

and I think that's why some feel so uncomfortable upon seeing their beloved mentor tarred and feathered in an open forum. It's like.. if he was so wrong, where does that leave them, if they partook in the spoils? Some often insist the vicster was "born again" despite his lifestyle. I wonder.. if one cannot honestly consider the vicster's works, perhaps is it that they indeed cannot condemn their own? I'm not specifically naming names, I'm just trying to understand the behavior. If the vicster's box gets unlocked, what about theirs? Or is it the nagging feeling of a long anesthetised conscience tugging at one's pants legs.. old "stuff" that supposedly needs to stay carefully covered under wraps? I remember one poster admitting some of this old "stuff" proudly. Too bad he got a beating, I think he would have revealed far more.