Ham

and that is the REAL question I asked, personally. "What are you doing to keep the same thing from happening, AGAIN?" No answers of course. Personally, I wouldn't keep someone whom I know who actually gives a damn in the dark.. you asked for help for this thing, didn't you? Prayed for "guidance"? For "wisdom" in running the thing? Here it is.. don't like a little rough edge on it.. tough crap.

you might have something there.. just move the trees out of town, where the squirrels are quite aware that city firearm laws loose their jurisdiction..

words borrowed from Groucho from another thread: I can't find fault with Groucho for this. The corps supposedly signed on to receive training such that they could acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Instead, I think they got training which instilled mog worship and beat them down into a lifetime of bondage and servitude.. so how does this new group think they are going to do any better? "any participant may be dismissed at any time.." "the program may be cancelled at any time" all at the whims or discretion of those charged(?) with oversight.. "those in charge" apparently are above guilt, wrongdoing or recrimination. what if abuse occurs? does the victim find themself waking up on a bus with a headache, 700 miles away? And the rest of the enrollees find the person's life picked apart in some kind of spiritual analysis, as to why they got "possessed"? will they be so well "trained" that they will disregard the evidence, seen through their own eyes, and buy the stories of how der mog is the greatest, and can do no wrong? I still don't see how using the same methods will produce any different results..

some people say you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't see how people think they can set up some kind of paramilitary survivor program in the middle of the swamp, and BEAT spirituality into the volunteers. Submission and obedience, perhaps.. but "spirituality"? The kid's probably had barely enough psychology courses to be dangerous..

I dunno.. sometimes I think "apologist" is more of an observation, a statement of that which is obvious. Some did it in the old ministry.. some mogster would rip somebody's throat out, and then subordinates would begin making excuses.. he's tired, he's over-worked battling debils, he's just spiritually angry, he's.. on, and on , and on.. never the real obvious answer, "he's just an a**".. maybe they don't know they are doing it.. it's like bad breath.. MOST of the time I think some of the so called name-calling is more of a personal favor, than a personal attack.. but really, how else do you inform someone they are behaving badly, or just giving one grounds of perceiving them as behaving badly? Maybe a nice personal message.. but for some, unsolicited advice is not very welcome..

so, in the old system, why did they prove to be ineffective as to rooting out the evil? Admittedly, some heroically tried.. even at great risk to themselves. I think the overall ineffectiveness marks the system itself as flawed.. the basic tools needed to fix the system itself were lacking or non-existent.

"Acquire and in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.." Do they really think they can deliver on this one? Some of those guys likely were around practically until rosie's reign.. and didn't have a stinking CLUE of the real abuses going on behind the scenes.. starting from gramps, to loy.. where was their highly valued acquired in depth spiritual perception and awareness, then? Can't they see that mog worship kinda clouds one's judgement? I don't think they can discern spirits out of a wet paper bag.. especially as long as they hold gramps in high regard. I think all they are doing, is conditioning people to disregard that which is obvious, and seek out the arcane explanation.. the mini-mogster didn't get a ticket because he was speeding, no. It's debils out there, trying to break his concentration, so da greatness of der verd doesn't prevail..

I dunno. Some people have a desperate need to live in some form of self-delusion. Why not give it to them? Either way it goes, they are "right". One way avoids all the argument..

Please don't quote the troll either. That defeats the purpose of the ignore button. I haven't seen a single quote I haven't seen before. Subtantially the same material, over and over and over.. nothing new. Nothing "newsworthy" enough to bring to the attention of the community. I think all the haranguing just advertises the trolls resolve to endlessly deny, object in a psesudo legal matter, decry the supposed character assasination of hoodlums.. I think it sends the wrong message to those who lurk here, that they WILL be challenged if they share personal experiences. And grilled. And endlessly cross examined.. Some may consider it a little rude, but maybe a few private messages to a newcomer rather than replies to a troll might curtail a lot of this nonsense..

I had a problem with der vey's lack of classification of sins in God's eyes.. that to God, lying is as bad as murder, that there are no grades of sins, but only in society. I think the teaching that the old testament was written for our learning was invoked generally if it was convenient. Adultery? No problemo.. your little "white lie" was just as bad.. besides, we are not under the law. Then on the other hand, they taught that "a believer in the grace administration would not even THINK of doing less than the TITHE." why would a "believer in the age of grace" want to do any less than what the law dictated regarding ADULTERY? I guess one had to be spiritual enough to "handle" flying below the law..

No replies yet? maybe it's TOO cwazy..

The Helsinki Horror

and what do they have to offer the recruits? Power, to be LIKE THEM.. in the ORGANIZATION. to be the "who's who" in the cult hall of shame.. the "privilege" of having the power of summary judgement- to be like God..

Skyrider's words on another thread seem to fit here. in the old ministry, I don't think it REALLY was about what vic described with tears in the eyes, "building MEN and WOMEN..". It was about building an ORGANIZATION. People be damned.. And there is no accountability. The guy on top has power to "terminate the program at any time", "dismiss ANY participant" at any given moment, at his SOLE DISCRETION. And he is- NEVER WRONG. On any count.. I bet they "ordain" almost every single first graduate of the program..

Apparently if one wants to get in the mog business, they'll put up a link for you.. I would like to see their requirements just a TAD higher. Like.. the linked website has to say who's running the thing.. who's on board, what the curriculum is.. who's teaching what.. it's fine that perhaps THEY (cff) know the who's and what's about the program, but what about anyone else? And what about the disclaimer? Is it.. "use at your own risk"? Supposedly it's Cour*right's believer link page.. why then doesn't it stay on Cour*right's internet website? The "sowers" seem to be going the way of der vey.. don't "owe" anybody any kind of explanation, or accountability, other than to themselves.. it's been what.. a couple of years since groundbreaking.. and their site leaves the outside world to merely guess about who's running it, their qualifications, their history.. if this is the will of gawd, you'd think they'd want to be found.. All of this secrecy leads me to think they are delusional, and that they actually think the lord told them to hole up in rural mississippi..

I have a black cat in the house.. a house just isn't a house without a black cat..

especially if it is a sequel of a really really bad show to begin with.. since they aren't exactly forthcoming on staff and qualifications.. I have a few questions for those "in the know", maybe they could forward them to the appropriate people- note, they are not accusations. 1. As staff or leadership in the old ministry, did you abuse your position of authority, power of rendering summary judgment, and betray your trust between God and other believers? 2. As old leadership, were you aware of those who broke trust and condoned it, made excuses for perpetrators and covered for it? 3. What are you doing to keep the same abuses from happening again? Or do you hold to the myth of the mog, that he can do no wrong? Answer the questions to yourself if you wish.

I'd consider going to this church: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_067ahbXfg

I dunno.. maybe a list of popularly voted "toxic posters" on the top of the forums might help.. at this point, I don't think there's any good solution.. ban him, "we" are "bad".. let him stay, chase off people who otherwise may tell their story.. "we" are "bad".. option three. Use pixie dust. No, I'm not kidding. "well, bless your wonderful little ole heart. Of course you disagree with all this. That's ok." *licks lips*.. "pucker up sweetie, let me give you a big old kiss.." *Muwwwwaaah".

another thought. He allegedly betrayed his position of power in one organization.. what in the world makes him think he should be trusted in ANOTHER organization? Maybe jl wasn't as depraved as loy in the old organization, but making him the one MOSTLY in charge of a "church", makes as much sense as spanking loy, and putting him in charge of research..

The "ignore" button does wonders.. providing the rest of the community doesn't hit the "quote" button should they decide to respond.. I haven't seen a single quote of Oldies or WD that proves to be REALLY relevant or even worth reading. WD turned down some of my first hand testimony here, just ONCE.. I'm done with him..

I dunno. Maybe he just gets a kick out of INCITING a mob. Perhaps similar to walking into a bar inhabited by hordes of muscle-bound bikers, and shouting at the top of one's lungs, "you're all a bunch of lilly livered cowards, nothing you say is true..you should paint all your bikes yellow.." and then relying on the bouncers to save his miserable hide.. I think people have been rather kind here. I think some people insist upon bringing out man's worse nature. It's destructive testing. Push the right buttons long enough, gouge enough, get a negative reaction, and say "see, I was right. You're no better than *them*.." but no, they won't say it. They let someone else who hasn't followed the nonsense post it: "looks like you've come full circle.. now you're marking and avoiding the poor fella.. JUST LIKE DA WAY.." he's probably laughing his a** off..

He's saying "there will be NO DIALOGUE" even in the style that he writes.. sheesh. "I'm da master. Study what I say.." good grief..

But it passed msword's spell and grammer checker.. here's what a little "doohickey" on line says about it: http://www.online-utility.org/english/read...and_improve.jsp A SMOG rating of 19 indicates one needs a post grad degree to understand this sentence with one reading! isn't it just so wonderful to be talked down to in this manner? Why doesn't he just make his point, and get on with it? Instead, I am treated to an epistle that takes an ordinary human being fifteen or so readings before they can comprehend what he's saying.. I don't think he's trying to communicate as such. It's such a morass of s*it to sort through.. I think the purpose is more pavlovian.. ring the right kind of wayspeak bells..

The interesting thing.. with few exceptions.. I think our little "coming out".. little bid for independance.. was fraught with doubt.. it doesn't exactly agree with scripture as such..