Ham

is that ham and pineapple pizza, or ham, and pineapple pizza?

Well, I hope so.. I've already out-lived my dad by about three years. The only thing I can think.. should I meet with a demise before paying back the student loans, they'll probably shoot a couple loan sharks (officers) after giving them explicit instructions to go collect from me..

All that's for those who can "spiritually" handle it ya know..

Now George.. you could have had all that and more, had you climbed a little further up on the MLM ladder..

Where would I be? Well.. I wouldn't be in college at 51 years old.. Probably have a LOT more money.. last week, my account actually hit -1.36. Probably have a doctorate in chemistry, math, physics, or a combination thereof.. probably married and divorced a few times.. probably be a functional alcoholic.. But not miserable. Not that I am miserable now.. Looking at old age and retirement with -1.36 in the bank could depress some people I suppose.. doesn't bother me too much. I guess I'm nutso.. Well.. two good things came out of my involvement. I have two kids.. they are both intelligent, both of them have a college degree, both are married to spouses which I could not hand-pick ones any better.. and neither of them are tied up in a $%*@ cult..

Aha.. so he IS infected with *something*..

plus an aversion to garlic, henbane, and crosses. The vicster did have an aversion to crosses, did he not? Coincidence maybe..

One observation.. assuming that he DID "stand in the gap" for the flock.. it would seem that der vey put up for sale that which the flock already had to begin with. seems they were masters at manufacturing "problems" people never had to begin with..

Did he REALLY think he was "the high priest"? Or some modern equivalent? It would seem so to me..

Haven't seen it either.. at least financially or professionally. hey, if it doesn't work out, can we send meyers the bill?

I think if they can't deal with it PUBLICALLY, they have no godly business starting a new twi knockoff, corps lookalike "training" or any such nonsense. they've like.. moved from under the cover of one organization which thrived on authoritarianism, abuse and lack of accountability to another.. I really think it comes down to money and power. pfal and it's clones are cash cows.. it's like when twi ship was burning and sinking.. it wasn't "save the women and children first.." It was more like.. "for gawd's sakes, get those tapes and books on a lifeboat.."

considering that the vast majority, 99.something percent of Christians believe in the Trinity.. I'd say to be "one of *them*" the belief, or agreement would be necessary..maybe it depends on how one defines "Christian". I think vic's material is irrelevant, as far as any genuine kind of spirituality is concerned. He seemed to be able to debate facts, a few statistics.. but no genuine godliness as such came out of it...

The eye-burning claims were made in twlil..

I don't think we were anywhere near equipped to help. We were trained how to behave about the mogster, how to witness, how to run classes, set up and run meetings, how and when to give money.. but when it came to actually helping someone, I don't think so. There are people that I have no idea what happened to either.. I think we were trained to be helpless. add to that the stigma attached to seeking outside help.

Yeah. Well.. the difference between the two I think.. a real pastor has had several years of post secondary school education.. they are often qualified to counsel people with real problems.. they often do some real good in the community.. and for the most part, they have an untarnished character. Should they choose the plagiarizing, womanizing, abusive path, it's gone in a heartbeat.. I've seen it happen in my own town. plus "preaching da word" is only one small part of a real pastor's duties I think. I may not agree with them, but I can respect them if it is earned, and not based on some unique belief I happen to agree with at the time. I really think if it were not for the "god" bizz, vic very well would have been a gangster.. some of these guys, I don't think have the potential or inclination to do anything else. Like a *lot* of old "leadership" who left the way- all they know how to do is "move da word.." get in front of a microphone, keep the mouth moving, make the same lame claims.. start an offshoot.. keep the donations rolling in, run the gawd bizz.. there are likely more, but I personally know of only three who left vic's tutelage, and plain knew they lacked qualifications, real, honest training, and credentials, and did something about it..

About a year before I was out.. I had about enough of the wayspeak.. so I tried a little experiment. It was cruel.. at "leader"'s house.. in a movie, the character was suddenly afraid. I said, on purpose: "he sure is SPOOKED.." "leader's" mouth dropped open.. he started twitching.. I thought he was going to go into a fit or something.. "sss, sss ssss SPOOKED?? SPOOKED?? sss, sss.. hisss, SPOOKED???" then he succumbed to a fit of laughter.. it probably went in a file somewhere on me..

and qualifications, previous training, and half an education are not required. All one needs is a sufficiently plausible "supernatural" experience, or two. Or more. The more, the better. Some snowy gas pumps, a voice from heaven, utter a few words in an "unknown" tongue over and over again.. in fact.. all of the bad spots on the resume may be "miraculously" scrubbed off with the right kind of holy water, or some claim the blood of the lord.. "that was mah PAST suh.. how dare you impugn my honah and drudge it up..."

It's like.. no longer does need one need to market illegal substances like heroin, cocaine.. or perform robberies at gunpoint. Why rob someone, when one can convince them that gawd almighty REQUIRES them, to hand over the money, VOLUNTARILY? The real success lies in the fact that one may then "rob" the same person, time and again, on a regularly scheduled basis.. The mogster can even give themselves a raise on occasion.. not just tne percent, but twelve, fifteen, or more if the victim wants gawd's good favors..

Mstar's wikipedia reference to the fictional Elmer Gantry caught my attention. In the early 1900's, the proliferation of organized crime and resulting mayhem eventually got the federal officials attention. Whole departments were formed with the sole purpose of eradicating their organizations and products. Capone was finally aprehended on TAX EVASION charges. The mobsters were beginning to find business a lot harder to do.. better armed cops, better intelligence efforts by authorities, better strategies.. trained men.. slowly more difficult to bribe locals.. what to do? Get out of the gangster business? Hardly. Just change gears.. at least the smart ones did. Get in the religion business. Sure.. easy money, don't have to REALLY learn a new skill.. still don't have to lift a finger for manual labor.. The government will SUBSIDIZE you. You are suddenly untouchable- file the right papers, and you're TAX EXEMPT. And like mr. Gantry, one may continue to womanize, guzzle drambuie like it's water, enjoy all of the good material things of life, and if one plays their cards right, one will emerge from scandal and certain ruin never fully discredited, and triumphant. And one will have hordes of VOLUNTEERS to come to the rescue.. to make excuses, rationalizations, anything short of claiming to have been duped.. and the perpetrator doesn't have to give any REAL account for his actions.. It's the one business venture that I know of where one may go from public enemy number one to "manogawd" in the blink of an eye..

Capone. When he wasn't murdering, "womanizing", and otherwise making mahem, at times, he could actually be a nice guy..

I'd compare him to Semon Dye in Caldwell's Journeyman.. He womanized, drank, cursed and cheated the men out of their money and goods.. I know, he was a fictional character. But Caldwell drew his character likely from his own experience.. before the economy was good enough that these sycophants could start their "ministry" and have poor dupes to bring money to them, some of them had to hit the road, and work the people in rural countrysides for sustenance..

I think he was a "nazi" in practice. JCING was his own personal version of Mein Kampf, and outlines his "struggle" against mainline christianity.. trinitarians or adherents to the belief that the dead are alive were subject to his form of "antisemitism".. trinitarians were even labelled as deluded or possessed.. he had his own crowds of cheering wierwille youth.. we cheered in public, we even cheered at his taped classes.. he had as Geo said, the brown shirts, and the even more committed, loyal "guard".. he even had a close circle of firearm toting goons and lackies that wouldn't think twice about offing somebody, or even laying their lives down to protect him from any who dared offend his "greatness".. I think he at the least emulated Hitler. I think the vicster took a revisionist point of view regarding early christianity.. claimed to have the truth- like it had not been known since the first century.. the true, hidden meaning of the bible.. I think his old, loyal guard's life ambition is to raise up the "boys from Brazil".. Was he a *real* Nazi? I don't know.. but there seem to be quite a few observable similarities.

Didn't he accuse Graham and Bright of being in cahoots with the government over this, so that the government could get *da money*, instead of it's supposed rightful destination, the hands of the mogsters of our day and time? That's kinda how I remember it..

I dunno about racial.. but the religious and spiritual superiority was in my opinion practically the same. It perseveres in *his* organization to this day.. the mighty prevailing household.. the thought of superiority is appealing to many, obviously including myself at one time or to some extent. How many of the corps would have been ss? I'd have to say, some of them. Some of them carried out orders without question, thinking or conscience.. I met others who never could. we all cheered at the rallies.. now it's a sickening thought for me..

that explains his little cursing and screaming debacle, ending with launching a Living Bible to the back of the brc because he didn't like how they handled Romans 13.. oh no. It's gotta be da ministry that is owed da money..