Ham

Yeah.. same old model, same tactics.. and it's a different day. The days are even tougher. More competition, less resources.. T*wnsend may have survived the scramble to "get a life".. DWBH did well.. and others.. but this delay for the new "sewers" kids may prove to be financial and professional suicide.. unless the "leaders" can REALLY give them the world. More likely, in five, ten, fifteen years, they'll find themselves out in an even harder world, trying to fend for themselves. the "leaders" may do well for themselves.. but I don't think they'll ever sit on a big a nest egg as rosie and donna.

I dunno Ala.. well, for me.. I had to do "something" to burn my bridges to the old doctrine.. I won't say what it was here though..

I don't know if I'd label them all "dangerous".. some of them border, or have crossed the line to the comic.. some offshoot "ministers" appear to be just plain pathetic.. I've seen a few abandon their real "calling" (if one would want to call it that) in life, to go back to the same old environment.. plan meetings.. string chairs, get in front of the microphone.. I think jl did more with his little sat preparation program for kids than his YEARS of writing and slobbering on the microphone for ces.. those in utter denial of what the *ministry* really was.. I think are the dangerous ones. They are handling fire, and can't or refuse to acknowledge those who were previously burned..

I wonder if they offered door prizes at the big "shindig".. autographed copies of old vey publications.. the victors belting out a tune or two.. *tuning up* *la la la la la la la..* *I'm stealing a bridge..* *It's been stole before...* *rosie holds all the rights..* *but I'll show her what for.. do do do do..*

And for the Mc's.. I have a few questions. 1. What's the state of the farm? I mean.. are you wallowing in debt.. is it largely abandoned? Economic tough times? 2. Does this influx of donations and free labor alleviate your condition? 3. Who's name is on the title deed? umm.. ya know.. even with a verbal agreement and spit and handshake, whatever permanent improvements are done to real estate will belong to the holder of a title.. and one can find themselves "dismissed at any time" by those who REALLY have the "oversight".. it happened to those who built on twi's land, even to those with whom vic had a covenant of salt.. or did you relinquish the deed to sewers inc? If so.. the original owner might find themselves in the same position..

One of my cousins was in the corps, and underwent an attempted and failed deprogramming by the parents. Of course, with the escape, my cousin was made into an example of der prevailing verd.. gawd's deliverance.. I cut off contact from my aunt and uncle basically for the duration of my involvement in twi.. and they perhaps may have been my only way out.

and at the end of the day.. it all comes down to moon pies.. sometimes I guess.. that's the best anyone can do.. the poor hapless victims.. can escape for a brief moment, and find more truth in moon pies than any of the mindless ranting of der mini-mogster wanabe.. long live moon pies..

as far as a "survivor" game is concerned.. seems kids will stay around and put up with the abuse, provided the "prize" is big enough.. I wonder what boobie prize they are holding out to the "participants".. Ordination into "da ministry"? You've gotta be kidding.. "as a reward for enduring abuse, here ya go kids.. how about some more abuse?" the sad thing.. by that time, they are probably addicted to the abuse..

that's what REALLY troubles me. I think that makes him infinitely more dangerous in the situation than v2p2.. and "those *charged*(?) with *oversight*" can dismiss any participant AT ANY TIME.. FOR ANY REASON. Including but not limited to just speaking up about any form of abuse.. In my opinion- the old man only taught him how to abuse.. and keep a warm smile and cheery disposition along the way.. So I re-issue the question.. "where are your safe guards in the organization?" who is watching those "in charge"? as far as v2p2 is concerned.. where else in the WORLD is he going to get elected president of a company.. barely 24 years old, barely out of college with a bachellor's in history I think.. or maybe business.. he should be in school.. or in an internship at some place legitimate.. what a waste of a life.. shame on them.

well.. I survive this semester, and then.. either.. ONE 300 level math class and 1 credit math seminar.. or.. one 300 level chemistry class, like physical chem II and the one credit math seminar. I might take all three. along with an acturarial prep course. then there's grad school.. Or I could go back for one more year where I'm at.. and make it a double degree, math and chemistry.. that's what I originally wanted to do back in the seventies.

When I see something like that.. I dream that some day someone would enact laws that would allow the spanking of some parents.. really though.. shame on them. Or him.. the kid should be in SCHOOL somewhere.. grad school. Instead, they've got his intellect boxed in, thinking he's gotta run a third rate lookalike cult..

Yep, he's vp's grandson. Named after gramps.. son of jp. Around here, they "affectionately" call him v2p2. pappy is on the board of the "new" organization.. VERY LIKELY v2p2 has a few cousins on board as well.. and he's "all grown up".. the "ripe" age of about 24.. or so. I think they are mistaking arrogance for maturity though.. I could understand someone perhaps having some claim to fame having Al Capone as an ancestor. But I haven't seen any of them try to bring organized crime back to the "purity" that gramps practiced..

That's what I initially thought.. "this has GOT to be a joke.." but nooo.. the kid doesn't think gramps did anything wrong.. he lists him as one of his heroes. I think they've fed him a line that der ministry of old was a wonderous land, until the "bad people" like loy and others ruined it.. at least that's what he believes. he appears to have inherited gramps ego and arrogance.. and is surrounded by some of gramp's old guard, yes men, one and all.. where he managed to drudge up twelve hapless "followers", or how, is beyond me. He probably promised them the moon, along with an exalted position in da organization.. seems some kids love to play the "survivor" game nowadays..

Interesting that when the vicster "cut ties" (was thrown out on his rear) that he took the "issues" WITH HIM. To me it would suggest that his "practices" could not function in the old group.. he merely took his old set of "problems" to a new set of circumstances.. seems that a lot of offspring "ministers" follow in his footsteps. jl is still convinced he left twi with the "gold".. just polish it up a little bit.. change a few minor points.. and he's "made it his own".. I think he's as egotistical and arrogant as the day he was forced out of the confines of twi. Old set of "issues".. new set of circumstances.

and I can do the integrations and such by hand before the prof can figure out how to use the integral tables.. well, easy is relative.. it did take me a bunch of years to get to this point. Double the math required, a half a dozen chemistry classes.. physics.. now I can go back to doing homework in ink..

The interesting thing to me, DWBH.. is one can take "vinny" or "his", "him".. substitute almost any offshoot "leader's" name, and the shoe fits.. and like j.l., they regard the blight of vic's doctrine and practice to be like gold. They've left egypt.. and like Mrs. Presky, they didn't choose the fourteen carat gold bullion, it was a bag of ...... "but it's great ...., Mrs. Presky.."

And it seems like a blight spreading across the land.. I can't criticize anyone for specific beliefs.. what really bothers me is the rampant arrogance, false authoritarianism and egotism that seems to fuel a lot of these groups. And apparently they aren't exactly getting the results they'd like.. this new corpse thingy.. it's almost like the attitude is "by gawd, we are RIGHT.. and we WILL get results, one way or another.." why else put people through a meat grinder.. an "extreme" training.. I think they've perfected the concept of "fake it and you'll make it.." look "christian" enough.. run classes, pretend one has the power of God, make enough noise.. and God *surely* will be on one's side..

Naw.. we won't see him. we're "copouts", "disgruntled".. "have an ax to grind.." I got the mark and avoid treatment after just asking a few pointed questions in private. So the last message I sent was "if you run a slip shod operation like gramps, your'e gonna get your corps "evaluation" in a place like this" with a link to greasespot.. but it's true. Wait ten, fifteen, twenty years or so.. Maybe even far less..

It's very likely that most of those among them consider us possessed. I mean.. who but the debil is gonna try to stand against their *obviously* godly calling.. or speak against it.. I believe they really think that we've sold out to the "enemy".. or at least that's what they keep telling themselves. A naive kid, just barely twenty-something, I can account for a little ignorance and lack of experience.. but an over the hill adult? Maybe it's a product of dementia.. who knows..

or imagine the promise of free labor to a farm owner who is finding it more difficult and increasingly expensive to do business..

I would agree. Not to say the money wasn't demanded.. it was almost like they felt "entitled".. but it just greased the pan..

I dunno. Personally, I wouldn't make that phone call.. the itty bitty mogster wanabe very likely already has delusions of messiahship.. any kind of inquiry or shakedown from the locals, and they'd spin it to look like he was gawd almighty..

jp. He grew up in cff, started by w. cl*pp and john shr*yer. It seems he has broken away from cff.. they do advertise his little "extreme" adventure on their web site. shr*yer was still warm in the ground when v2p2 and group made their big announcement for sowers.. makes me go "hmmm"..

He's already developed the arrogance of gramps.. and he's only in his early twenties. Leave? I think he's so addicted to praise and adoration he wouldn't live a week without it.. The pathetic thing.. he did manage to crawl out of his shell long enough to get a bachellors. Now he's retreated back to the security of fawning, aging followers in the Mississippi swamp..

Is that a Guinness that squirrel is guzzling? maybe that's it.. guzzle down about two or three dozen of those, and the "program" will start to look a little better..