Ham

and, one last post, and I'll rest a while.. I really really think.. he's got so many foul, dark, evil deeds done in secret invested in the old ministry, that he just CAN'T be objective. same for geer.. and some others.

One of their own "heroes", E.W. Bullinger, who was a trinitarian by the way.. he said something like "look for the devil, in the pulpit.." forget wars, all kinds of other stuff.. I partly agree.. lynn, schoenheit.. et.al.. they didn't leave twi with the "gold".. I think they just left with the microphone.. fortunately, the world doesn't seem to be beating a path to their door..

Debate is futile. This kind of character can make an obvious falehood sound like it is God's honest truth.. you cannot know from one moment to the next, whether he's telling the truth, or not.. and his retort would be.. "big T truth, or little t.." I think it extends way past the ordinary sinner, who tells "little white lies".. I really think we are dealing with some seriously disturbed, dark souls here..

I think that the organizations you reference are the subject of the highest form of intellectual contempt and snubbery by jl, js, and company.. in their minds, if you worship a triume God, you are an idolater.. and nothing PRACTICAL you do in life can be done to "redeem" yourself.. this philosophy is the kind of "gold" they dredged out of the old organization.. there are a few consequences to supposedly thinking one holds absolute truth.. and they can debate you in circles around scripture.. it's what they "do" for a living.. they THRIVE on controversy and debate.. and conveniently forget, cover up, or minimize past sexual "indescretions", and raging abuse.. of their own selves, and others- "practical" issues which apparently sits in the back seat, and "da word like it hasn't been known" sits next to the driver.. and debate is like trying to pin down water. Even a simple inquiry like "what results", and I've seen hem-hawing and spin that would make a politician blush..

I don't think he isn't aware of them as such, I think jl merely relegates their efforts as "second rate causes". I think he is still immersed in his "father in the word"'s opinion regarding "mainstream" christianity, that they simply have nothing significant to offer, for over 2000 years. Thinking one holds a package of "truth" like hasn't been known since the first century has produced some subtle and not so subtle kinds of arrogance and prejudice..

I remember vic going on a rant in the seventies about Graham and Bright.. almost like they were staging a "conspiracy" to water down what he considered the word of god.. interesting in hindsight to see who reall watered down some standards..

Stalked? I don't think that term is quite accurate or appropriate to the situation here.. I for one am not following him around, observing his habits.. seeing where he works, who he associates with..etc. etc.. If I understand you, I think you might be suggesting more that "his name is prominently mentioned", second only to the vicster. Just because the vicster is prominently mentioned here, one could not infer that he is being "stalked" either. Or P*n*rello, or Geer, or any other abusive numbnuts.. Remembered, yes. Stalked, no.

at least we know how to have fun.. Come to think of it, if I abused to the extent of his loyness, I wouldn't REALLY expect any different "standard". Or is he really THAT deluded.. I really think after the initial furor, he'd get a lot better treatment than he'd think.. foul mouthed? I'll say this as nicely as I can: "speak for yourself.."

Now.. consider, we have a character.. very "convincing".. and it is because HAD to "practice" LIES, to be convincing to that degree.. OR simply being able to "naturally" spout lies and falsehoods.. in such a convincing manner, unrehearsed.. either way, I wouldn't trust him with my spiritual life.. and this is a guy, who claims he holds "truth"..

I am beginning to think making that distinction is being a little too "generous".. Very convincing.. I wonder how many times he practiced this particular little spiel in front of a mirror.. and how many other spiels we are not even aware of..

And don't worry.. I think the dancing "prez" wouldn't profit, or be a member of the class, considering he administered the scheme.. seems something of this nature might actually break twi's back.. I'm pretty sure their insurance policy does not pay for documentable fraud..

lost wages due to participating for three years in a fraudulant work/study scheme.. might add up to quite a few shekels.. even at minimum wage levels of retribution.. it'd be what.. about $48,000 or so? times how many corps grads are there? I'd imagine the handful of current employees would choose to opt out..

It's like.. you paid, and in many cases served "hard time" to acquire the distinction of a "lifetime of christian service".. and then "sorry, we don't REALLY need ya.." it's not like getting a degree that a different prospective employer would consider on a resume.. da numbnuts now don't even want anything from many whom they trained.. even on a VOLUNTEER basis.. I wouldn't be a "happy camper"..

and considering that the "training" was unacredited, and was basically required and administered for in-house employment.. and that many of you guys were run off for no good reason.. when numbers were NOT yet dwindling, due to some documentable mismanagement.. I wonder if there is a class action legal remedy.. :)

Then.. I haven't seen a valid degree or "training" in chemistry, math, physics, destroy or ruin a profession as a physicist, chemist, mathmatician.. but a "degree" from a degree mill.. that's about the fastest way to NOT be noticed in a favorable manner from one's peers.. one may not actually KNOW that the paper in hand isn't worth any more than a few sheets of toilet paper..but it reeks of dishonesty.. whether one is honest or not. I know "corps" actually did some WORK. True.. it's not "fair".. I'd be disappointed if it were me..

and.. I think the big factor just might lie in where they actually did, or didn't get their formal or informal "training".. considering the cloud of doubt associated with twi ordination, if one would want to continue in da "ministry", they'd at least owe it to themselves to get some *real* training and legitimacy.. and avoid the embarrasing questions, as to credentials earned sitting at the feet of a lunatic.. or move on and do something else. Find a "real" calling. Something else useful, and legitimate.. many have.

maybe it's just getting some greatly needed exercise.. jumping up and down and shouting do go together, do they not?

Hmmm. I wonder what it is precisely, that they are thinking that they will save the country FROM. A new takeover? Or a depression worse than the 1930's? Maybe the emergence of a government that has an apetite for the profits and resources of 501c organizations who choose to sit on their hands.. but the new "programs".. why does this little, "low impact" "commitment" look like they are saddling the "faithful" up for a few more heavy-handed, almost forced commitments to come.. "Nice horsey.. just hold still.. it's no big deal at all.. EVERYBODY is wearing one.." You'd think "gawd's people" would get tired of being saddled up and herded like farm animals..

Yeah.. I think it's all about the money.. or position. and he still seems to relish sitting in a chair somewhere, pontificating.. making pitches for "da word like it hasn't been known" since the earth cooled.. what a maroon.. life can't be very comfortable, wearing a dozen or so millstones about one's neck.. maybe he needs a couple more sessions of momentus, to dull the pain..

Makes me wonder how much more isn't known because we don't "need to know".. In my estimation.. with the lack of honesty, he is entirely unqualified for any kind of "leadership" position.. I really think he did it to himself..

Well.. and jl.. I think he forgot the "rules" of snake oilmanship. 1. Never, ever ever drop the product.. or admit to any legitimate aspersions cast on it.. if you have to, consume enough of it to convince oneself of it's supposed merits. Makes it easier to sell that way.. 2. Sell, sell sell. As fast as one can, as much as one can. Strike while the iron is hot. If possible, get other "likeminded" individuals to assist you in the effort. and lastly, 3. When the angry mob is approaching you from the last town or village- run like hell. j.l. has proved to be a "master" of number one and two.. but defintely not number three.. well.. with the last couple of experiences as greasespot, maybe he's learned his lesson.. I really think that's what vic saw in him.. a ready made personality- fit the carnival "pitcher" role quite well.. the pathetic thing is how he still pitches.. it's like, that's all he really knows how to do.. maybe it's a hobby..

I think it's almost like a carnival atmosphere.. "hurray hurry hurrray.. come get da word like it hasn't been known since da firsta centurayy.." and don't bother the guy barking out the announcement with any bothersome questions.. he's there for one and only one purpose- to sell.

I'd imagine checks would be documentable, and like on irs 1099 miscallaneous income forms.. If anything, it's probably cash.. probably have a couple extra garbage bags full from roa days..

Yeah.. and it's such an insidious doctrine, that denigrates others belief systems and grieving process.. regards it as primitive, or uninformed, biblically uneducated.. or at it's worst, regarding the belief to be a result of possession.. It's not about the specific veyy belief that the dead are "dead" and unconscious.. it's the arrogance.. we, or at least I couldn't go to a stinking funeral without thinking evil of another.. I think it stopped the grieving process..

I would bet he analyzed the minister's message for biblical "errors"..