Ham

another thing to consider.. practically EVERY SINGLE "leader" in that organization were trained by, with or followed the man who could "biblically" convince staff it was a godly thing to "loan" him their wives (documented in at least one instance), or enabled him.. to argue with them, is just to argue with insanity, in my opinion..

as far as "what can be done.." I think it depends on what you want to do.. if you want to keep some lines of communication open, maybe don't argue with them.. I think it just feeds the beast.. it actually gives them the polarity that they WANT. Some people in, their self-worth depends on being different, being right, at least in their own eyes..

Welcome to the cafe friend. I think if one can doctrinally justify wife swapping, they are rather sick to begin with.. now if they can convince otherwise God-loving people it's the thing to do.. I'd say they are more than sick, they are dangerous. At least you partly understand some of the mentality involved here.. drawing from way doctrine, even suggesting that sin CAN make one sick.. I rebel frem it only based on the source..

I remember one of your earlier posts Tzaia.. you seemed to think money was rather "tight" in the organization.. isn't this trip kind of "excessive"?

what I find interesting is how they can find enough people in today's economy with $4,000 in discretionary spendable cash.. to make the "deal" worth doing.. "hurry, hurry hurrayyyy.. only room for forty-five.." who pays js and wife's way? with current conditions, the only thing that comes to my mind is "out of touch".. but it's just an opinion I guess..

The sad thing is inside of a couple of hours, for the public, and the store, it was back to business as usual.. personally, I couldn't cross a blood stained threshhold to get a "deal"..

I understand if one puts up an electric fence, a cow only has to make contact with it only once.. maybe twice. As soon as the association is made of pain at the outside barrier of the property, one can turn the fence off, and the cow will not venture there again. One can taunt the cow to go look, see if there's better pasture on the outside.. in my case, I went to look.. loy ranted on about the evils of civic organizations, how they were basically useless and self-serving, full of devils and corrupt.. so I looked. It was a little painful, at first. I think those who are left in the pasture, for the most part, are those who cannot consciously break the conditioning..

I think it depends on who is "sick". If it's someone else, who they have NO CLUE what they are going through, the causes or lack of causes, the physical and emotional ramifications and all, it's due to lack of God's protection.. unbelief in the life of the one whom is sick.. If it is THEM.. it's not a "sickness".. it's a "challenge".. being attacked by the hosts of hell, an "opportunity" to rise up and BELIEVE.. after all, *we* know *we* are right, don't we? I think it's a sickness or blindness, in the head. That's probably why it is so frustrating to deal with..

Frank, did he say who "they" were, or was it assumed "they" were disgruntled followers, or debils or something? what an "educated" response.. "they really got to you.." anyway.. isn't it interesting.. an internet search for "the rise and expansion of the christian church" yeilds little more than a few negative references to the old organization and loy boy's not even second rate work.. and a half a dozen used copies for sale, ranging mostly from $9.95 with shipping to maybe $25 which includes an "autographed" business card.. book supposedly in "pristine" condition.. good luck selling a copy for $25.00.. that's about what it originally sold for, did it not? Considering inflation and such, even that's a loss. how low has the "work" fallen.. you'd think the whole academic world "missed it" somewhere, wouldn't you..

I think the reason innies revere this *great* work is the same reason they think current vey productions are on the cutting edge of christian "entertainment"..

When I was in, I thought the book offered too much and too little.. I felt it was way too long.. whole paragraphs and painfully overexagerated detail which only gave what one might understand with a trivial reading of the book of Acts to begin with.. so lengthy.. it was like.. "I'll show you what kind of opinion you oughter have.." dry rambling.. page after page, paragraph after paragraph..

Yeah.. what's amazing.. it just delayed the rush by a couple of hours.. it's sick in every way I can think of.. God have mercy on the guy's family..

Yeah, that too.. :)

I pretty much stayed away from newspapers as well.. they were pretty much held up for ridicule in the first session of the class, being so "negative".. as far as 1977 to 1980, life was pretty "calm".. only dealt with a few insane "leadership". For the most part, they left us alone..

thank God.. they will never see a dime from my kids.. ever.

and you'll be in another one in another six years..

Happy Birthday! Glad you're here with us for another one.. I was going to ask you how old you are.. but I see 61. You're just in another one of your primes!

I thought it was a Brit barbecue..

I always wondered about that.. it seemed to be like the question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? And what did he consider to be "practical error", just being NICE to people? apparently to loy it wasn't the sex..

In a lot of ways, I think headquarters wasn't entirely unlike those who rule in Beijing.. I remember the images of Tianenmen square.. the government slaughtering it's own people to keep "order".. wasn't that what those at hq did to "it's own" people, spiritually?

so.. who is benefiting from a class with a fifty dollar price tag.. or 100, or 200.. I remember the 200 dollar rationale.. it'll "commit" them to it.. It is still too "cheap". In today's dollars.. I'm looking at something like 150 a credit for a legitimate university class. so.. if it was "da verd like it hasn't been known since the first century".. isn't 200 too cheap? it's the price of a one credit university class. Was it actually worth it? I'd vote no.

My cats (as if one could own them) and I thank you..

or live in some kind of fantasy world where it was "the most significant christian movement" since the earth cooled.. look at the other sites warm reception of jl's letter.. and I'd imagine more than one of them endured mental and emotional scourging at his hand, or those "like him".. I understand vic could gut strip a lowly "follower" in fifty seconds flat.. and loy.. but they seem to reminisce the good times..

To do so they'd have to admit they did at least at one time. But they are *mog* ya know.. I think it is the same mentality as the nazi's after wwII.. just want to pretend it all didn't really happen..

Yeah.. vic put the "chill" on the seed of the serpent stuff. loy said something like "he only had to tell me ONCE.." at least from what I remember. what's interesting in this thread.. here we have someone kinda new to the forums.. and they find a remarkable similarity between "god breathed truth" and "commercial endeavor".. maybe it would be nice to see the connection rediscovered.. we have a whole different "mix" of folks.. like Penworks around.. maybe a few others.. I find it interesting that we have a few "smart folks" if you will accept the role.. :) on the "other side of the aisle"..