Ham

friend Tzazia.. could I offer.. if TWI took NOTHING, then they would not be responsible for the outcome.. if they took: 1. MONEY 2. TIME 3. ETC. they share the "benefit".. why do they not share the consequences? I thought we were supposed to be in some kind of "full sharing" mode or something.. just a thought..

what amazes me, are the "programs" which find me some kind of heretic or infidel because I simply refuse to bite, the second time.. or merely produce a few legitimate questions.. had I followed a different timeline... I'd be one of those morons demanding unquestioning obedience and loyalty.. no thanks, morons.. I'd rather die starving in the streets..

the real tragedy.. they have "renewed their minds" sufficiently to relegate people's life experiences here, as being the imagination of those "few" disgruntled, dissatisfied, "customers" with an ax to grind.. sure, I had "fun" on my wow year.. *sometimes* the food was good.. got away from home, got a little more independant.. but I could have done the same thing in the peace corps..

the new organization.. how many on the "board" are "ordained"? well.. they ordain themselves.. or were "ordained" by the vicster in the old organization.. so we have three to five individuals, who won't be "fuddy duddies" and voice any REAL objections.. the "big man" probably has inherited the vicster's "power of attorney".. they will crank out "ordained" YOUNG men and women at a phenomenal rate.. too young. Too naive, too immature, to realize- they are placing trust in yet another fiendish multi level marketing program which will not benefit them in the long run.. financially, or intellectually, or professionally, or SPIRITUALLY..

and I'd add- at one time, I believe that 99 percent of "ordained clergy" were under thirty.. of those, I'd say 75 percent were under 25. I'd say all but one or two were not mature enough to realize they were placing trust in an organization who used them as victims and proponents of a fiendish multi-level marketing program which would NEVER benefit them personally, or financially in the long run..

for the size of the old organization, isn't it signifcant the small number of "members" over fifty? There was vic, ermal and harry.. and about how many other "elders"? Not many that I can count in my head right at the moment.. and they ALL supported the vicster if he just said thus sayeth da lard.. didn't need any logical explanation or anything.. so you have a group of castrated "elders" who would either support his insanity, or merely turn a blind eye to it. maybe that's one of the root reasons for the "success" of the wow program, corps, etc..

I wonder if the sowers "keeds" will be saying the same thing about their little "diversion" twenty, thirty or so years from now.. "what a waste of life".. all the "counsellors" they seem to have can't see beyond the "logic" of living a life less than "amish" for the lord.. I think both vic and loy chased off anyone old enough, or with enough experience to put a damper on the party..

well.. there is ONE individual I know who held out some genuine unqualified love and support.. I don't attribute it to the doctrine, or anything other than character.. we'll see what we'll see.. perhaps..

I think this is the most.. what's the word.. betrayal of the soul. Don't make damn promises you can't keep.. all you "numbnuts" who promised some kind of community.. I call you on this.. we are supposed to be "brethren".. let's see the DEED, not the spoken word.. I'm waiting..

in other words, not NO humor.. but herr mogster's humor is the only "humor" allowed.. all other is "devilish", "devisive", "too sarcastic" or the like.. "mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be homos" is allowed. It's sarcasm.. but it agrees with the "truths" of herr mogster of the moment..

for some, this seems to persist, for years after leaving the organization..

Partly 1 and 2 I'd imagine.. the name tag heirarchy distinguished basically who is "right" (the moron running the the meeting) and who's "wrong" ( the poor slobs in the audience drooling at every word of said moron)

I really think that's the results of a "snowstorm" and a doctrine one does not have to "back up on".. it's like carrying a large millstone.. don't "have to" back up on turns into "can't ever" back up on.. have to constantly polish it, adore it.. justify its existence..

my request for "results" really is sincere.. You say you can trisect an ARBITRARY angle with a compass and straightedge.. go ahead, let's see some "results".. there still exists a fringe set of "kooky" mathmematicians, who get caught up in this, even after Wantzel proved n 1837 it logically just couldn't be done.. Robert Yates said ""Once the virus of this fantastic disease gets into the brain, if proper antiseptics are not immediately applied, the victim begins a vicious circle that leads ... from one outrage of logic to another". (Yates, The Trisection Problem, National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, Washington, DC, 1971, p.57) I think it's the same symptom and "disease" here.. just a different venue..

I'll admit.. I like attention generally as much as the next guy.. but people don't have to laugh at all my attempts at "humor".. maybe I'll take it on the road- bill it as a comedy act not like its been heard since Paul was at the Three Taverns..

I think because there is a mix of people here, some have been here for years, others just discovered the place.. and I've observed the same pattern.. when assaulted (ahem, witnessed to) by these outlandish claims.. some of them can't understand why the crowd isn't "playing nice" and are jeering.. they might even feel a little sorry for the guy being "picked on".. but soon they learn.. they follow this broken trail of logic, somehow welded on a loop.. offer suggestions.. some offer honest care and concern.. some of them get exasperated, and join the "jeering, persecuting" crowd.. some might just go away.. Is it just POSSIBLE that some really like this kind of "attention", and can't get it any other way?

I've wondered.. not this thread only but others as well. Some people just happen to be stuck traversing a rather large cloverleaf on the highway of life.. afraid to go forward (beyond "doc" vic "praise be his name"'s "research").. and terrified to get off the highway.. but who am I to say it's "wrong".. maybe it's better off than being on zoloft or something..

I remember vic saying that "the word doesn't REALLY address premarital sex, because it just did not happen in that culture.." or words to that effect. My impression was that if one did not fornicate in the open light of day, he could close his eyes to it..

what I found "odd" was the inclusion of a survey, asking previous sexual history, if one had homosexual experiences, what they felt about abortion, etc. etc. wherever did these surveys end up? I forget all of the questions.. maybe someone could post them if they know..

now the vicster.. the "ministry" WAS his "day job". It could be choice 2, but I lean more towards the opinion that it in reality was choice number one.. sheesh.. snowstorms nobody else who could be "spiritual" enough to see.. sheesh.

If I don't see the guaranteed RESULTS.. I am FORCED to come to the conclusion that either your claims are: 1. Knowingly false, dishonest, and a scam.. 2. Delusional. I don't think this is your "day job".. so I would eliminate choice number one..

Sounds like typical way speak.. answer a difficult question with another question.. I'm not the one making the claims. The burden of proof lies within the responsibilities of the one making the claim.

as far as the class goes.. I think like the perpetual machine, it's a waste of time arguing with the designer (or adherent) that there are "errors" involved.. it's the whole CONCEPT that's fouled up..

if the standard is "golly, I saw SNOW.." I must be the "greatest".. I saw snow once, in JUNE.. I live in Michigan..

The class seems to be a lot like a design for a perpetual motion machine.. one invests time, money, lots more time and money.. puts it under just the right conditions.. tinkers with it endlessly to match the "accuracy" of the diagram.. and it STILL does not work.. to date, not a one of these machines has produced as much as a micro watt in terms of net gain of energy.. not a single designer of one of these systems has EVER produced any physics that he (or she) didn't have to "back up on".. the "results" have to be REPEATABLE, and tangible. In fact, it must work EVERY SINGLE TIME. Imaginary or dreamed snow storms need not apply for the position..