Ham

the only reason I can see why one would justify those kind of actions.. is the person making that statement simply CANNOT distinguish between a lawless, predatory, scumbucket with a religious fever, and a "manogawd".. just.. can't tell the difference between the two.. that's the mind you are arguing with here.. Just can't see it. Even with documentable, cold, hard facts.. the only "lucky" thing about it all.. his methods are DATED.. stuck in 1973. I think "sheep" have evolved.. they are a lot smarter than that today..

As one rule of faith and practice.. how about "do no harm"? This more universal truth is documented in almost every religion and belief system, even among atheists. love does not work ILL to it's neighbor.. therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. It does not even IMAGINE of drugging and raping a sister in one's belief system.. It does not STEAL other's works to further it's own ambitions.. I think Wiccans and others merely expand the scope and importance of this "commandment".. but the concept itself is as "Christian" as Jesus.. in some places, the old testament outlined in painful detail EXACTLY what it was to love one's neighbor..

sooo... as a "haven" (if one calls it that).. what do these splinter groups actually DO? Or offer.. that one can't REALLY find anywhere else? One I am aware of.. went from a "help you when you get out of the way" "decompression" outfit.. and slowly morphed.. added a big building.. grounds.. structured tiers of classes.. "twigs".. "training" and "outreach" programs.. one could walk in today, and hear a "worship service", tongues with interpretation and prophecy, indistinguishable from what one heard over twenty years ago. it looks like der vey, circa 1982. honestly.. I think people need to move on.. when your time was "done" in the "ministry".. why not just move on, instead trying to recreate a shrine based on only the "good times"?

reminds me of Mike.. *bless his heart*.. might be a "personal" observation.. but I think it's valid and relevant.. I think he represents an "offshoot" in and of himself. Uses the same kind of "witnessing" tactics.. tries to corner people off on their own.. "if you just PM.. I'll explain EVERYTHING.." because his "explanations" do not survive in the light of day.. the MOST FRUSTRATING thing.. he's a NOVICE. even after years of repeatedly jumping through the same set of hoops.. tries to position himself as some kind of "authority" of sorts.. the "sowers" CHILD is infintely more worse off.. started life with a train wreck, instead of finishing it with one..

GENERALLY.. the offshoots are no better. They have adopted this multi-tier caste system.. How many hoops does one have to jump through, before one ever "arrives"? what I saw this system produce.. NOVICES who merely had enough stamina to endure the rapid succession of different classes and seminars, placed in positions of authority they really had no qualifications for.. and they had not "arrived" yet either.. more classes, more meetings.. corps.. etc. etc.. some of them have chosen to STAY novices.. into their fifties and sixties..

I dunno.. my experience was I was hounded to death to take this little known class.. even after I paid.. I paid about 3/4 of a year before they could come up with another six people to run an audio class. Can you imagine being "undersheherded" for 3/4 of a year? After a while.. the group relaxed.. figured I wasn't going to run off or something.. but then, the class! Suddenly, it seemed *they* were so desperately AFRAID that the "devil" would try to talk me out of it all.. that somehow, their SOLE PURPOSE in life was to see to it that I crossed the "finish line". I thought it was comical.. but my general impression.. people were on spiritual PROBATION until they sat through this mind numbing class, to the end.. but this was only the first hurdle. Then they couldn't be "trusted" with any of the other "manifestations".. more classes, more activities.. more, more more. And one never "arrived".

I dunno. When I was out of twi.. I wasn't aware of the offshoot active here. It was close to a year before somebody contacted me. "Cold turkey" isn't so bad.. a family member asked.. "whadda we do NOW?" Well.. we get involved in the community.. try to make friends.. who knows..

If I wanted to start an offshoot.. there are a number of things I'd consider.. The LAST THING in the WORLD- I would NOT want to resemble twi in any way shape or form.. I wouldn't copy their training goals and methods.. the same methods would produce (eventually) the same product- goons and meddlers.. I wouldn't copy their classes. I'd drop the arrogance. Then maybe God could actually teach me something.. I'd seek some LEGITIMATE affiliation..instead of crying "boo hoo, *they* are all trinitarians.." then.. I guess it wouldn't really be an "offshoot"..

that is the state of a few offshoots that I have had personal contact with. And the big defining question is often asked.."what makes us DIFFERENT?" Different from other groups.. organizations.. churches.. often it boils down to this works numbing mindset.. The question I would PERSONALLY ask.. if I were running something like an offshoot.. "what am I doing that is any bit different than the mind numbing, heart hardening, action inhibiting pharisaic practices I learned in twi?" In nicer words, I asked a couple people that.. didn't get much of a response..

true.. but from an ex(or current)-twi perspective, one might consider doctrinal superiority to be endless running running of classes, sitting in twigs marking greek words in the margins of bibles, doing endless word studies.. "debating" the trinity.. the state of the dead.. in short, sitting with one's thumbs up the wrong place, going nowhere.. doing NOTHING. I think it's a form of what one of our former "teachers" called being an intellectual weakling.. a person can debate until their face turns blue.. cite greek words and sources, quote scripture.. but lack the REAL ability to produce results..

Just a thought. What exactly technically would be wrong with that, even if they did? What would be wrong with, actually loving individuals with what is supposed to be the love of Christ, instead of attempting to SELL (cram down the throat whether they actually need or want the said product) the person or persons one bible "help" such as one endless class or seminar after another? All of the boasting of doctrinal superiority.. at best, we were spiritual (supposedly) GEEKS..

Look at the sowers group.. my opinion.. what else does a group of pathetic, broken down, has been, unemployable group of ex culties have that they can do.. "lift" the corps principles.. and pfal.. and who knows what else.. what do they actually PRODUCE? I did ask nicely once.. "what are doing any DIFFERENT?"

I vote with the same old same old.. and it's not just doctrine. Maybe not all of them... but for the most part they seem to share a common factor of a "unique" doctrine, the same old hierarchy, whether stated or merely insinuated or assumed.. the same air of arrogance and false authority.. I think they are a comfortable place.. for those who left or who were booted from high positions in der vey, and simply don't have another lucrative position they are qualified for.. or simply don't know how to do anything else.

He's the Marmot of gawd for our day, time and hour you know.. all the others are "pretenders".. holding out false hope to *their* people, of an early spring..

aprroximately 13,000 people showed up in subzero weather in the dead of winter.. isn't that significantly more than ever showed up to any given rock of ages?

well.. the rascal made his pronouncement..

Thanks friend.. well, groundhogs and squirrels are relatives.. The Groundhog.org site says 1886 was the first year they officially recognized Groundhog Day. I remember when I was young, my dad always had something to say about whether the groundhog saw his shadow or not.. kinda a big deal to him.. maybe just a well deserved vacation from reality with a moment of sheer lunacy.. I think I inherited whatever "it" is..

Now.. "have" is a relative term..

I think they thought I was a "secret agent" from PETA or something.. but I really was well behaved. Didn't criticize anybody or anything.. even shared tips, how to trap troublesome squirrels. one poor lady said, "just go away.. go away, Secret Squirrel.. don't bother us.." "fine. I'll find somebody else.. another place that has a sense of humor.."

Once I set up an account and logged in as "Secret Squirrel" on a squirrel haters message board.. seriously..

well.. I had a couple of uncles.. Some people are pretty "serious" about the great holiday..

One lucky participant can win a minature bronze.. http://dentco.com/groundhogday/index.php I'd put that one on the mantle..

I can hear Andy Williams singing.. *It's the most.. wonderful time, of the year.............*

sixteen hours, seven minutes..

The Israelites marrying the offspring of Cain is on page 77. The other reference, I think it was in the sons of God/adpotion and birth section.. can't look it up now, I don't have the book anymore. The only book I have left out of herr vey's bookstore is a Lamsa bible.. oh, a couple greek books. I had the newest versions.. no, they were never corrected..