Ham

and.. what AMAZES me.. the new "corps" deal think I'm a heretic or something because I'd like to see some documented accountability.. two or three emails.. and all I get is silence..

I think itemizing the "who" these predators are is rather enlightening.. *only* enough to count on two pairs of hands.. or is that two pairs of two pairs of hands.. 1. The vicster himself.. 2. the loyster, king vicster II.. 3. everybody in the yak twig, except for dwbh and caballero.. 4. every limb coordinator I knew, except for one.. 5. corps directors.. and I pray not G*orge J*ss.. I can't see that happening, I hope he was one of the good guys. 6. almost everybody in the various presidents cabinets, either "indulgent" or *merely* complicit.. except w*lter.. and I would be really disappointed to find out he was involved. 7. "uncle" stick a liquor-soaked tongue down your throat "howie".. limb coordinators, region coordinator, cabinet members.. corps directors.. naw, it wasn't the WHOLE ministry.. just those who ran it..

what I find interesting.. that these "men" conducted themselves in such a manner, and thought consequences would never catch up with them.. I once heard a limb coordinator "counsel" a person to "just get over it, and get laid.." rather loudly at that.. loud enough to hear it, through two thick doors.. I think he's fronting an offshoot somewhere now.. what was it, that gave them no fear of God, or fear of man either?

interesting.. without a "holy" "sanitized" wierwille, these "men" are NOTHING. or less than vic.

Oldies.. I think the "problem" with your mantra, is one really CAN'T separate the "message" and the "messenger".. he may have boasted of freedom in Christ, and all that.. but on the other hand, what did the "message" produce? If it produced a life of "holiness", that's one thing.. if it produced a life of abuse, alcoholism, sexual immorality, intellectual thievery and the like, in himself and OTHERS.. maybe it's not the "message" you really think it is, or was..

and.. what about the little "question and answer" period.. "herr doktor, is it 'ok' or not to have premarital sex.." "duh.. well, ahem.. well, they didn't have that 'problem' in bible days, so da word doesn't have anything really specifically to say about it.." "well, it's just not BEST.." don't you think that kinda left the barn door open? that in itself might not be damning.. but add the vicster's and loys and countless other underlings proclivities to the equation, and I think it's kind of sinister..

Long before you or her saw the first twig I had logged in countless hours working and living at Emporia, The better part of a year living there. working eating sleeping side by side. I was there before the Corps were there working in about every inch of the place. From the kitchen to the print shop. I shoveled out the science lab from the rubble left there by the former college. out into the hall and down the steps into the dumpster. I cleaned out the back stage closets in Kenyon from the props and costumes there left behind, painted the mushroom psycadelic walls in Emporia hall and Kipp. Cleaned the kitchen walk ins, moved mattresses and beds, worked on grounds, worked in the kitchen and dinning room ,and a million other jobs. what I'd like to know.. how do you feel about a significant portion of sale of this (allegedly) UNPAID labor was used to pay off the settlement of the lawsuit instigated by the documented indiscretions of the loyster? I just wonder.. how it feels to know while one labored away.. some aggressive bumpkin from kansas was busy "diddling" every man's wife he could con or coerce into it.. your labor paid for the settlement..

Actually.. the "overhead" is even less than one would think.. start with stolen goods, plagiarized works.. jl and crew left twi with a pretty big "package" of plagiarized goods.. and the idea of "research"? spend the next twenty years, or longer.. rehashing pfal, way doctrine, reaffirming themselves they've got the greatest "package" since the earth cooled.. one decade after another.. "it's a living" I guess.. I've read a few of their "works".. and they are not substantially different than what was produced in the old ministry. Same old tired stuff.. just a different "package".

The only monkey scene that comes to mind to me.. is the one in Bruce Almighty. I think that's where SOME corps and leadership came from.. out of the vicsters, well you know. But at the end of the movie, they didn't go back..

and essentially they are the same.. same authoritarianism.. same trivial logic and "research".. same castrated intellect.. same verions of circular reasoning.. maybe it's all a bullies intellect can understand..

Hmm. I Greasespot an anti-twi website... is a bear catholic.. does the pope.. well you know.. actually I think GS is a product of twi. Had loy and vic kept their pants zipped up at the appropriate moments.. didn't abuse people.. there probably wouldn't even be a GS cafe.. even loy himself named it.. perhaps da way was its own worst enemy in this instance..

Service-oriented projects take WORK..........lots of work. Communication, organization, rallying a work force, time commitments, physical involvements and/or risk, hours and hours on your feet, etc. etc. not to mention work, but MONEY. And usually lots of it, to really do it "big time". could it be.. operate without providing any real basic service, outside of selling books and running meetings to take donations.. is just running with far less overhead?

maybe that's all they were taught..

one other point.. or thought. when the whole world seems full of sarcasm.. booing and hissing.. it is not necessarily because the world itself actually stinks.. maybe it's the bad performance that SCREAMS for these kind of reviews.. I've had to look within a few times.. So.. wd.. what I "read" in you.. you probably really hate yourself.. probably have done something nasty, or a whole lot of nasty in God's name.. I have done some as well, and loathe the memory of these brutish acts, the less than half a handful of times I did so.. but you can't bring yourself to self-flagellation, or self-loathing. Or even loathing the acts themselves.. so... what does one do.. ah.. bring a whole community to the point of lashing out.. you have the inner judge and jury which REQUIRE this.. but then on the other hand.. you have the dumbass vicster's theology which prevents you from doing so.. of course I could be wrong.. but that's my impression here..

I think you over rate yourself.. and I think you don't "read" people very well either.. it isn't that they relive the past day after day, every bad experience in da way.. it's more like they won't put up with the same bad behavior.. the "reception" you get here.. the razzes, the hisses, the sarcasm, etc.. doesn't that tell you something? and it isn't limited to this little neck of the woods either.. I've seen the same kind of authoritarian posturing met with the same kind of reception in very different venues..

I wonder if he's still hiding out in a way paid hovel in Ohio somewhere.. writing his memoirs.. roughly titled in english, "My Struggle".. sowy..

what I want to know.. when he *returns*, will he be holding a rise and expansion book in his right hand..

ever consider that's why you get the "reception" you do here? That is EXACTLY what was wrong with the old ministry.. loy didn't care, the vicster didn't care who he gut stripped.. they KNEW what their actions would produce.. and they simply did not CARE what kind of effect they had.. now this is just an observation.. I've SYSTEMATICALLY seen you draw out the worst sarcasm from the gentlest people here.. and a further observation.. GENERALLY, the sarcasm is deserved.. but you don't care. It's your life..

no, I have an OPINION. And it usually takes me a lot of consideration to form one.. but post after post after post.. that's what you come off to me as.. a NOVICE. The arguments.. could be easily debated by a freshman in high school.. I'm not calling you an idiot, or bad names here.. it's just, if people had that perception of me, I would want to know. I'm really being polite here..

oh yes.. the tongues with interpretation thingy.. what did you think? the "message" very well may sound like it's "just for you".. but one needs to remember the person giving the "message" may know quite a bit more about the new guy at fellowship than the new guy realizes..

the last "fellowship" I went to that was loosely affiliated with ces, cff, etc.. the "teacher" carefully analyzed why liberals were supposedly so "screwed up".. that they have no logic.. just throw their minds to debils, or the least, are under their influence.. that one might not turn "homo" overnight, but slowly, gradually, one day.. that *they* are so deceived, unlike *us*, who "know the truth.." I was polite. I sat there, jangled my head up and down like the rest of the crowd.. (didn't want them to think *I* held a few liberal ideas, and subsequently, was "screwed up" or "posessed). But I "escaped" their spiritual "radar".. the possessed Squirrel slowly made his way for the door.. The teaching was over.. had a cup of coffee.. shook a few hands.. and I NEVER WENT BACK. that was during the last election. No, not 2008. The one before.

and that is the undercurrent that flows beneath about ninety some percent of offshoots Brushstroke.. oh.. did they do the tongues and interpretation thingy or "prophecy" for you?

quite true.. I've found a remedy.. just agree with everybody.. doesn't seem to be catching on though..

Seems to me.. should I say it? Arguing with wd about the vicster's guilt or lack therof.. is like arguing with Mike about the supposed merits of pfal.. Just an observation. Don't take it personally, but wd.. you really seem to be what's the word.. a NOVICE. A novice, in legal matters.. about as qualified to judge legal matters as a barely post-freshman psychology major is qualified to practice psychiatry.. at least that's what I perceive in your posts.. they seem SOPHMORIC. That's the word. No documentation with case law.. court records.. just assertions of sophmoric legal mumbo jumbo that a real professional would not waste the time to debate with you.. don't take it as a personal attack. You are probabaly otherwise a wonderful human being..

or if there is a systematic method of bible study, designed to break down your "illogical" beliefs.. "I staunchly believe in the trinity" is almost like marking yourself with a bullseye for some wayers and ex-wayers.. a lot of these groups inherit the vicster's intolerance and opinion that many adherants to the trinity are "possessed of devils".. too blinded to understand their "truth".. they really think.. that if one is "compromised" enough to believe it, they've given up their free will.. that very well may be the undercurrent you will find yourself dealing with..