Ham

I think it comes down to.. they simply don't know how to do anything else. They will acknowledge, when it's convenient.. the abuse, the doctrinal error.. the practical error they were a part of in twi.. then turn around, and try to sell one the same set of stained goods, i.e. "da word, like it hasn't been known since the earth cooled".. just don't have any other occupation they are good at I guess..

WD.. do you shop at Walmart?

any spiritual principles from the bible I even half way value I never learned in twi.. if people value it.. Christ made his "bed" in hell. Didn't "renew his mind" out of it, or some such nonsense.. One of the psalms says something like.. if I make my bed in hell, thou (God) art there.. in twi, all that was in the "opposition" was the devil..

twi also had(has) a pecking order, maybe not of violence, but definitely intimidation. the "beatings" I know of in twi.. for the most part, were verbal.. and continued long after "initiation".. I think the acts of allegiance included well over tithing, witnessing and shunning life long friends and family.. but twi was worse. Once one's allegiance was verified, it was to be "renewed", over and over and over.. one never really could "belong". like "uncle" howie said.. what do you need a retirement account for..

give money? they'd mark and avoid the unemployed first.. unbelief and debils and all.. that's gotta be why they don't have a job..

the only thing I can see in all this.. being a "victim" disqualifies one from being a juror in the case the accused, or perpetrator is tried. Presumption of innocence is usually included in instructions to a JURY, if I'm not mistaken. if you're trying to drum up an impartial jury wd.. may I suggest, look in another place than Greasespot? I'm sure you can find a few. twi was a small, small speck on the map.. doubtless there are MILLIONS of people who never even heard of vic, loy.. rosie.. or even heard of the lawsuits against da "ministry".. all of this "confrontation" and all.. makes as much sense as putting the families and survivors of those whom capone murdered.. in a jury box, and trying to convince them they oughta give capone the benefit of the doubt..

I still want to know if they still do the tongues with interpetation or prophecy thingy.. and if the "custom tailor made" "messages" to that *unique* body sound hauntingly similar to what one heard in twig thirty years ago.. all with thee's and thou's.. or is it all "closet prophecy" now.. corner some poor slob off on his own, and rip out some kinda ambiguous "message" for his life..

Of course you know these *ungodly* criticisms just fall from them like beer off the back of a duck.. or something.. or is that.. like water off the back of a drunk duck.. or is it..

Yep. Most definitely showed their hand. well, I didn't even know what the paper was about, or that there even was a paper until I read it here, years later.. I didn't even know who j.s. even was.. or that he was "released" from employment.. or the extent of sexual indiscretions and worse..they were effective enough to keep a lot of this from rank and file, those who financially supported the "ministry". they weren't running a ministry.. they were running a house of (often forced) prostitution under religious pretense.. I wonder if I can get my money back..

the MESSAGE was.. "it's OK to boink herr manogawd, in his hour of *need*.." "all things (without exception) are purified with believing" "it's OK to lie, cheat and steal.." like a friend of mine in the old days.. his dad was smart.. he told him "sounds like you are using the bible to go to hell.."

the claim I referred to was the above claim. according to WAY THEOLOGY, neither vic, loy or others did no wrong. The proof? and as a matter of CHURCH ADMINISTRATION no less.. they labelled a guy POSSESSED, sent him out in the night.. threatened others to not read his "research" on pains of harboring the same "spirits" and following him out the door.. all from a word study on ADULTERY and FORNICATION. and for the most part.. twi "leadership" AGREED WITH him. They ADMITTED the "research" undercut vic's theology.. with this kind of track record.. I wouldn't believe the sun appears in the morning in the eastern sky based on da ways assertion.. they BENT scripture every which way with "dispensationalism" and the like to soften warnings against adultery, fornication, etc.. loy and crowd bent it from avoiding fornication and the like.. to being as a matter of THEOLOGY.. a "righteous thing" for another man's wife to "relieve" the "spiritual pressure" da manogawd was undergoing.. is this a "good reason" to assume da way's teachings are false? I think he makes a pretty good case..

they were so successful in burying j.s.'s little paper.. which though "accurate", could be described as a work that a high schooler could come up with.. that I didn't even know of its existence until twenty years later.. when I say high schooler.. it's "adultery 101".. even most grade schoolers would agree daddy shouldn't be sleeping with strange women.. no, the problem wasn't with the WHOLE ministry.. just those who ran it.. and I'm starting to think it was closer to the 97 percent level of those in "authority" being the very cause of all of this..

doesn't that strike you as at least a *little* UNUSUAL? I mean.. as a matter of "church administration".. labelling people who form the opinion from the bible that adultery is actually WRONG.. as POSSESSED?

umm, Oldies.. wasn't that why he was fired, labelled possessed, along with his "work" and anyone who happened to read it? And twi LEADERSHIP agreed. seems your example supports Juedes claim to me.. and geer further claimed that this kind of "research" threatened the very fiber of "dr"'s "works".. they ran him off before the ink was dry on his little paper..

They softened the words of Paul, whom they claimed to revere as well. "No inheritence in the kingdom of God" is really supposed to be a big deal.. they softened it to where the lord would just give them a little swat on the hands and deprive them of rewards or crowns.

I think twi's "theology" as to musical presentations was kinda schizoprenic.. on one hand, we were encouraged to show appreciation, and heartily applaud (even for some pretty lame acts).. on the other hand, musicians were supposed to not have any ego, or contribute anything personal in a production? after being beaten down enough, the performers probably really wondered what the crowd was applauding..

so.. I ask those who revere *doc* vic, "praise" be his name (?).. is *this* how *we* want to do business? honest question.. you won't find it at a vic revering offshoot or anything. I'm waiting..

what's "interesting".. suppose we show the lord we love him with all our intellect.. often he shows us there is more.. the intellect does not mind so much..

and.. what AMAZES me.. the new "corps" deal think I'm a heretic or something because I'd like to see some documented accountability.. two or three emails.. and all I get is silence..

I think itemizing the "who" these predators are is rather enlightening.. *only* enough to count on two pairs of hands.. or is that two pairs of two pairs of hands.. 1. The vicster himself.. 2. the loyster, king vicster II.. 3. everybody in the yak twig, except for dwbh and caballero.. 4. every limb coordinator I knew, except for one.. 5. corps directors.. and I pray not G*orge J*ss.. I can't see that happening, I hope he was one of the good guys. 6. almost everybody in the various presidents cabinets, either "indulgent" or *merely* complicit.. except w*lter.. and I would be really disappointed to find out he was involved. 7. "uncle" stick a liquor-soaked tongue down your throat "howie".. limb coordinators, region coordinator, cabinet members.. corps directors.. naw, it wasn't the WHOLE ministry.. just those who ran it..

what I find interesting.. that these "men" conducted themselves in such a manner, and thought consequences would never catch up with them.. I once heard a limb coordinator "counsel" a person to "just get over it, and get laid.." rather loudly at that.. loud enough to hear it, through two thick doors.. I think he's fronting an offshoot somewhere now.. what was it, that gave them no fear of God, or fear of man either?

interesting.. without a "holy" "sanitized" wierwille, these "men" are NOTHING. or less than vic.

Oldies.. I think the "problem" with your mantra, is one really CAN'T separate the "message" and the "messenger".. he may have boasted of freedom in Christ, and all that.. but on the other hand, what did the "message" produce? If it produced a life of "holiness", that's one thing.. if it produced a life of abuse, alcoholism, sexual immorality, intellectual thievery and the like, in himself and OTHERS.. maybe it's not the "message" you really think it is, or was..

and.. what about the little "question and answer" period.. "herr doktor, is it 'ok' or not to have premarital sex.." "duh.. well, ahem.. well, they didn't have that 'problem' in bible days, so da word doesn't have anything really specifically to say about it.." "well, it's just not BEST.." don't you think that kinda left the barn door open? that in itself might not be damning.. but add the vicster's and loys and countless other underlings proclivities to the equation, and I think it's kind of sinister..

Long before you or her saw the first twig I had logged in countless hours working and living at Emporia, The better part of a year living there. working eating sleeping side by side. I was there before the Corps were there working in about every inch of the place. From the kitchen to the print shop. I shoveled out the science lab from the rubble left there by the former college. out into the hall and down the steps into the dumpster. I cleaned out the back stage closets in Kenyon from the props and costumes there left behind, painted the mushroom psycadelic walls in Emporia hall and Kipp. Cleaned the kitchen walk ins, moved mattresses and beds, worked on grounds, worked in the kitchen and dinning room ,and a million other jobs. what I'd like to know.. how do you feel about a significant portion of sale of this (allegedly) UNPAID labor was used to pay off the settlement of the lawsuit instigated by the documented indiscretions of the loyster? I just wonder.. how it feels to know while one labored away.. some aggressive bumpkin from kansas was busy "diddling" every man's wife he could con or coerce into it.. your labor paid for the settlement..