Ham

maybe that's the whole point.. now I imagine some people's exposure to greek, aramaic, figures of speech, counselling(?), among other subjects, was first in the corps. Now probably not.. but it seems to me that a two year "miracle program" is hardly the place to get grounded in any one of these areas. So they give a "miracle" two to six week course and have the students read competent to counsel.. and some emerged from the training.. and I would assert, have not developed themselves beyond knowing just enough to cause real problems.. my experience, if I got any real *help* from some of these novices, it was only due to "dumb luck", not much unlike the unlikely proposition of hitting the lottery.. Don't they OWE their "congregation" the expense and effort to actually develop themselves, along professional lines? I mean.. it's their BUSINESS, isn't it? Instead.. I see the same old thing, offshoot after offshoot... they are rehashing the old foundational class.. around and around in circles they go.. with slight variations on the theme.. well, it's just a few thoughts..

I heard before my time, they gave the pfal tapes to advanced class students.. anybody know if this was true?

Guess we know what's important in da way, or is it, in da way mindset..

did he? To me it would appear.. he ended up with a country plunged into various civil wars and conflicts.. his own household, he could not adequately control or guide.. advisors and military personal jumped ship, not to mention his own offspring.. maybe king in name only, and that by the skin of his teeth..

like in loy's case "it was a ONE TIME, CONSENSUAL *affair*".. and later we find it was a regular "habit" of sorts.. I think the guys that cry "it was just ONE TIME.. " are practiced liars.. they've rehearsed that little trail of tears since the second, third or fourth time.. how does one "restore" someone in that condition? Just a few thoughts. I hope not too many..

I dunno John J.. it just seems to me.. the first time, one might be very well aware of the ramifications.. and take a few precautions, cover the trail.. what I wonder.. how many prostitutes did swaggart visit before he was careless enough to get caught? it's just a thought.

I think this just shows how "wacko" the judgment of the "trustees" was to put the loyster in charge of RESEARCH.. and people still trust for the lack of better words, morally bankrupt self serving cowards and hypocrites..

Personally.. I think if a *minister* or one in authority is CAUGHT in adultery, prostitution or similar sexual sin.. it was not, by FAR the FIRST time. they got "sloppy" about it.. about the details, covering their tracks.. maybe even turned a tad bit arrogant I'd say.. too late to fix something.. it's far too deep rooted for a little cry and "sowie" to really correct the situation..

I wonder how the STIFFI's would respond to this, being compared to Neopagans and Wiccans.. have *fun*

At best, I view him as a dim witted opportunist. An otherwise dull, "jock" and barely educated moron who seeing the vicster's endorsement, weighed the alternatives, and chose to run with the endorsement.. other than that, he may have been a "nice guy".. notice I did not say "athelete". There's a big difference between a second rate jock and athelete..

just a thought.. if it were not for herr vicster, loy wouldn't have had the chance to even leap once in tight tights.. I mean.. I think it took an overbearing charismatic personality to even get people to follow loy in the first place..

I need at least.. three to five more lifetimes to learn what I need to learn.. I don't know if it's "available"..

I would not hold them to a higher standard that I would not hold myself to.. about two weeks ago.. I was at a math seminar. The "chief speaker".. was from China.. he was one of my former professors in Math 301. there were two Americans there who could speak Chinese.. for a brief moment.. I thought.. Gawd.. I'm really out of my league here.. These people were so kind..

I think the point is, we (or I) hold *them* to a higher standard.. without painting all who left da ministry with the same brush.. if they left as second-rate hacks (or worse) under the vicster's tutelage.. isn't it REASONABLE to ask what they've done about improving themselves and not just stay in that condition? What kind of SKILLS have you learned, since leaving.. what kind of communication skills.. what are you doing, that is any bit different from the old "ministry"? all I'm saying is.. a little self-improvement goes a long way..

then it could be another scam.. you know. put these things up for sale.. or maybe the one copy one has.. repeatedly buy it from oneself, making it look like they are "selling like hotcakes".. "hurray, hurray, hurray.. while they a lasta.. only one to a customer.." some dumbass wierwille worshipper.. "OMG.. they are GOING AWAY... NOOOOOOO...." out comes the precious piece of plastic..

I thought da way had to sign over copyright permission to sell the dumb thing.. maybe it's geer. He browbeat them into giving him some publication rights or something.. but $5000? for something more suited for use as a garden hoe than playing for spiritual edification?

what I wonder.. did he go on to get any legitimate accredidation or anything? Something like a degree? Without some kind of "professional" development and connections, one's options are rather limited.. a lot of offshoot types seem to stay in the nursery a lifetime.. and have not much more than what they learned from ole "st" vic..

maybe.. maybe he believed that he believed.. or believed that he believed that he believed.. experienced? I dunno. at this point.. I am not entirely conviced that his "mentors" really believed, either.. if they did.. and I'm thinking about L*onard.. maybe he (L*onard) had the mistaken notion that he and his product could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (the vicster).

Yeah.. these "psychos" used to be free to roam from town to town.. finding unwary populace.. now when they go to open shop in a new offshoot.. seems the whole world is at their door asking a few "hard questions".. don't like it? tough crap..

my emphasis. Note: NOBODY is on trial here. The right exists such that if, or when, they are before a judge and jury, that they will 1) be presumed innocent, and (2 is presented all the guarantees necessary for his defense. No. There is no trial here. Only public castigation. Now if one can find a law prohibiting public castigation of these flagrant scumbags, then maybe it's time to close shop.. see.. times have changed.. these psychos used to able to just go from village to village and set up a bunch of new marks.. now with the internet, people can compare notes. That's not so bad, is it? We are actually pretty civil here.. they used to run run snake oil salesmen out of town on a rail, form possees to round them up, and so on.. pretty brutal, once they caught up with them..

yep.. I think if one removes all of the legalease, the point he is trying to make is: nobody has the legal RIGHT to publically castigate a documented scumbag.. dead or alive. Do I understand this correctly? So, I can't scold little johnny for kicking the cat, or acting out in any other reprehensible manner.. or say something like "Capone was a psycho".. might damage his "good name" or something.. I can see why people look for motive in this. I mean.. if I went on a campaign to clear Capone's "good name".. demand proof by a jury verdict to prove every stinking ounce of booze, or heroin he sold.. or every hit he made.. I think people would either think there was something in it for me, or that I was just "nuts"..

On a personal level.. I think Walmart shoppers are going to hell.. but that's just me..

Yeah.. considering Walter has a degree in math.. I guess that says a lot..

honestly.. I wouldn't want to be measured by a golden yardstick.. if one demands it.. I guess they get what's coming..

I dunno.. maybe the "message" is.. GET OVER IT.. *WE* are not royals or anything, at least anymore.. you're looking for standards of gold.. applied to creatures not much different than swine.. well, it's a little thought..