Ham

Ah yes.. "busy".. a busy "worker".. working for what? I was lucky. After I left or rather chose not to submit to stupidity (i.e. I'll think about it and get back to you. yeah, that's it..) no offshoot leader had my phone number.. maybe I was "lucky"..

How old does this make you feel.. well, not TOO old. I think *they* are likely 20 + years older than myself.. Give me 20 years if I live that long Ron, and I'll give you a report. That is, if you live that long as well.. well.. hope you do anyway.. *live long and prosper*..

Jiminy.. you both didn't get it right. Sometimes, you have to put "unbelievers" outside of the region, if not the whole stinking country.. diabolical threats to "community believing" and all you know..

The problem is, you aren't starting at the fundamentals. You know, the not so hard to document.. "thus sayeth the lard, the sun will rise yet another day.." in about fourteen hours here, anyway..

Its easier to count the failed "prophecies" keep trying fellas.. one of them may work out ok someday..

maybe the recipe for snake oil was more appropriate, with the ingredients he had at the moment..

suurrre. Lotsa things.. even as we speak, the Pope in full dress is parked out of Boston Harbor, conversing with his staff and making terms with the locals to pull off a new inquisition..

I think it was around that time.. the way I remember the story, da debil stole vic's idea, gave it to Kroc, and just for meanness, turned the w (for wienerville) upside down. Hence, the origon of the golden arches.

Maybe he was too busy getting revelation on the hook shot to be bothered with such a minor detail as the internet..

hmm.. might be good, who knows.. but to get enough "substance" from a few for tacos, wouldn't one have to include the innards and such?

hmm. If I take off this monkey suit, she is probably going to kill me..

I wonder how many "ministries" started at just such an event..

I think because the vicster exuded *something* that disarmed us. To the extent people watched him in the motor home, the coming and goings of women and the like, and merely disregarded it.. that the obvious just could not be.. maybe the words "entranced", "bewitched" or "fascinated" apply here. And they still apply, to some I've met. I personally think there is more to it than a character having an excess of personality or something. perhaps he worked for some rather dark forces.. consider how he could easily sell conspiracy theories and the like.. and people lapped it up like there was no tomorrow.. stuff that could logically disregarded with little thought or confrontation..

One of you "elders" is worse than Esau.. you sold your soul and heritage for one stinking tank of gas.. if you are reading this, it might be an "oh my god" moment.. just think back..

and after he died, the veil of secrecy is slowly removed, his "ministry" basically fell apart, his children were ostracised and sent away with no inheritance, his wife was shamefully treated, the group at least for a while lost its precious tax exempt status.. roughly 97 percent of followers fled in later years, many top leaders are (in my observation) watched and viewed with suspicion, some are viewed as having committed war crimes, and.. the vicster's *great work* is basically buried. Except for a few illegal copies, here and there. It it was a vote, I'd choose "Faustian deal".

After reading account after account of the sexual predation, taking bribes (special "offerings for da manogawd and such), along with its lack of report to the irs, drugging of women, intellectual robbery (plagiarism).. how is it that he actually got away with it? Apparently he didn't exactly "get away with it" prior to 1942.. at least in his church. but after this, he seemed able to do pretty much as he pleased. I didn't even hear of any of this prior to Waydale and Greasespot.. granted.. in the late seventies and eighties twi had the resources to just make the "problems" go away. But I've read accounts of his predation on women in the late sixties and early seventies, when twi was really still in its formative years. No angry husband was able to "off" him.. although he admitted a couple of people tried to, in the early years.. never said why. does anyone know when this occurred? No charges of plagiarism, or copyright infringement, with the one exception: the blue sing along the way books. But those didn't bear his name either. I don't know if I'd say his hand picked goons were competent enough to really protect him. Was he just that lucky? Or did he make some kind of Faustian deal of sorts?

From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is number 9 and 10 on the list. For now at least. I can't say either way. The relevance here though, even if you didn't partake in gramps sin, were you AWARE of it? If so, how does that affect your "qualifications" to lead? Do you still sweep gramps real legacy under the rug? The worst part.. you raised junior to believe that gramps was some kind of bible super hero..

which makes me ask.. why would someone with a half a brain or conscience want to resurrect it? The NOVICE running it considers the old corps a success.. apparently he isn't aware, or considers your observations of vic and the old corps to be of any relevance:

I think we can trace the vicster's despotic tendencies back to 1942. Maybe even earlier.. in his interview with Whiteside, he describes crying his little eyes out and telling "god" if he didn't give him something he didn't have to back down on, that he could take his religion and stick it somewhere else.. I don't remember ever seeing him in the position where he "backed down" on ANYTHING.. maybe someone else has.. who knows.. maybe he made some kind of "deal" with a different kind of entity in the office across from the gas pumps..

not that I am so important as to quote myself.. but wasn't the "prevailing" (pun intended) attitude.. all we owe *them*.. is "da VERD"?

In a general sense.. or rather culturally.. I suppose I still consider myself "Christian".. every half-decent thought the "representative" of *our* religion expressed as far as love of God (who I refuse to attempt to define anymore).. and neighbor.. who I can define.. I embrace.

Yeah.. the explanations. We don't believe in a trinity.. don't think the dead are conscious in any capacity.. don't think good works are necessary for a *christian* lifestyle.. but we agreed that sex generally wasn't ok outside of marriage.. except for exempt cases, like relieving herr manogawd and immediate subordinates.. generally.. were not any resemblance to Christianity in any cultural or moral sense.. what then WERE we.. followers.. of what?

Duck of Doom.. actually.. I think loy fit that role admirably.. even *uncle* howie knew full time corps wasn't exactly financially "with it"..

Good topic Groucho.. personally, I wouldn't believe that the sun rises every morning based on the victer's assertions.. I'd have to have completely independent corroboration..

from your reference Waysider, the movie scored: maybe that's the connection to HA.. the critics can't find anything positive to say.. In regards to *mr* allen, if I dropped anything, it would be the "duck" part.