Ham

My name is in that little book in the auditorium.. if they haven't burned it during a burn the chaff or uncle(?) harry ceremony or something.. I forget how much it was I gave..

I have words for this.. that I won't say. No.. I better not.. *choke*.. *ahem*.. *Gawd bless them, every one..*

its their "opportunity" (hack.. sowie) .. I mean.. they've missed their little slice of "heaven", haven't they..

No, I won't say you "nya, nya, toldya so.." but doesn't the "exclusiveism" kinda stink now? not that I care.. like I said then, anybody who doesn't want unwashed squirrels in their ranks.. well.. to whatever with them..

excuse me Shellon.. "Shipwrecked, there's one now. No nice memories of sorts.."

unless this is some kind of rhetorical question, maybe you could enlighten me..

welcome to the cafe, shipwrecked.. I hope your stay here is pleasant (at least as is possible).. I'm glad you have fond memories of *mr* and *mrs* moneyhands.. not all here can claim the same..

why do I have more of the feeling they've got him trained like a circus bear.. my impression was he was not capable of responding to anything more than "you're the greatest.. preach da word man.." what I wonder is.. what's he gonna do when the "handlers" are dead..

so somebody finally admits it.. You know he graduated Cumma Sum Laude or something like that.. he should be in GRAD SCHOOL. Apparently the "kooky people" don't exactly have his best interests in mind..

I think it borders on child abuse.. name your kid after a drunken, abusive, thieving, plagiarizing sex fiend.. train him to think gramps was some kind of hero.. tell him "preach da verd, victah.." its really disturbing to me.. gramps left a trail of spiritually damaged women, and men too.. pa and *uncle* mac really knew better.. or I wish they did.. I just asked a few questions.. "what are you doing any bit different".. just running another slip-shod, make it up as you go piece of dang that's gonna damage people the same as they did in the "good old days"? what kind of safeguards have you built into the program.. what kind of accountability do you have, other than to your puffy little self.. are you going to have "lead" and "rodeo school" type activities where people are physically damaged? Have to "renew" their minds to get "healed" or something like that? What recourse does a participant have, if someone "in charge" makes untoward advances, innapropriate comments, abusive behavior? Just send them off in the night? That is the way, it was.. we wanna go back to "the good old days".. you might want to rethink that a few times.. I'm not throwing you into that camp. That is a piece of information you might need.. right out of the starting gate.. "he's a great manogawd".. Humble? Maybe as long as you agree with him.. I dunno.. Does he KNOW *his* people are calling him a Man of God? Does he approve? Disapprove? more questions..

Humble.. a "great man of god"? that's the FIRST description one of the "followers" attribute to him.. where did he get that from? v2p2 has no CLUE of what happened in the old ministry.. gramps is a HERO to him. Stolen works are his heritage.. I really feel sorry for the kid. where did he get THOSE ideas? That the corps program was a *great* success.. that the ministry was like a theme park, before the *bad* people took it over.. unbelievable..

over all, I've been pretty calm about it all.. I'd just like a few answers. Of course, the questions just continue to pile up..

How do you know? The fiscally dishonest part that is. Not an accusation.. but I thought da way of old was fiscally honest..little did I know.. and the farmland. Can he afford to keep it? Taxes and all.. what kind of "production" is being done there? Does he rent it out? does he need free labor to make ends meet? Pay *workers* in terms of hot dogs and millet? Is it now deeded to a tax exempt non-profit group? they aren't exactly "above board" by any sense of the word I can come up with..

As far as "helping" people.. could you be a little more specific? Now some of them might be honest and all.. but generally, have they really "gotten over" it? The way experience that is.. I would interview them. Ask a few questions, calmly.. 1. How many times did you use your authority in the group to receive sexual favors? 2. How many times did you accept offers for sexual favors based on who you were in the organization? 3. How much MONEY did you receive in "love offerings" from the organization, provided to you based on your position, or "function"? 4. If you were married, how many times did you engage in adultery? 5. How many "believers" did you slander, calling them "possessed", "unfaithful" or some such? that's just starters.. I'd give them about forty five seconds on the first. During the stumbling and stuttering, I'd ask the second.. I won't paint them ALL evil and such, there are one or two I personally know who could honestly answer "zero" to all the questions. point is: for the most part, they are in no position to really "help" people.. in my opinion. Some of these guys.. maybe I shouldn't say..

How many of these "characteristics of a faithful minister" did vic exhibit? Or Loy, Geero, Panar*llo, L*nn, To*nsend, etc. etc..? vic qualified for five out of six. The idolatry issue, well, that's more about one's beliefs, isn't it.. rather vague.. of course the "mainstream" groups would give him a six out of six.. I think that is one of the main "perks" of being mog in a splinter group.. is the possibility of even being a "leader" in SOMETHING.. no reputable organization would have them..

I've heard here claim when to*ns*nd speaks, it sounds EXACTLY like the way, in the mid-seventies.. NOTHING has changed. At all. I don't quote the bible much.. but this seems pretty relevant.. I Corinthians 6: verse 9 through 12: I don't see how it agrees with christian ethics to go to their churches, their feasts, give them money.. buy their "works".. support them.. I mean.. known fornicators, idolaters and swindlers.. just doesn't make sense to me.. and for the most part.. there is no *real* repentance or regret. Just damage control.

At best, I've seen *less* abuse. Cleaned up? I dunno.. some of those guys proved themselves to be nothing more than a sow's ear. Silk purses.. sows ear.. the two never seem to meet up together in any fashion.. Look at the stiffi's, wars of prophecy against prophecy.. "borrowed" way doctrine, the portion which suited them, and they inherited the same bad habits and arrogance from the old organization.. and geero's group. practically a carbon copy of da way. At its worst. Run by a firearm toting thug from the way's yesteryear.. and then there's the newest group, The closest carbon copy of da way it was at its worst. Smack the "followers" around (figuratively if not literally) and send them home if they don't like it. They are taught to actually WORSHIP a very young, inexperienced, *man*. da *great* *manogawd*. Hasn't hit thirty yet.. hasn't experienced life even a quarter way around the block.. and the board, a sad collection of aging ex-wayfers who probably can't afford to retire. The underlying feeling is GREAT resentment for being tossed out of the ministry on their ears.. some by a WOMAN, a usurper. Very, very deep seated bitterness. That's what I read in them.. I'd go on, but it wouldn't be anything I haven't already posted.. but to me, it is very very troubling. You couldn't find a worse pair than those two to be on a board, with arbitrary power over peoples lives. In my opinion. And I've seen the same arrogance in twi in cff. Same pride of "knowing da word" like it hasn't been known.. but they manage to keep some of the arrogance muzzled. I remember a time when they were working on a mission statement. The thought was "everybody is doing something.. what makes us DIFFERENT? What DEFINES us as an ORGANIZATION?" I thought.. "here we go again.. we are starting to put up some of the same detestable boundaries.." and I did say something to that effect.. I have no idea how it turned out. Then there's the River Road "fellowship".. sounds pretty detestable.. and the rood ministries guy.. imo, a real "fruitcake".. am I missing anybody? The h*ndricks organization, I never knew him. Can't say.. But a half a dozen or so of these kind of groups run by former *ministers* who fornicated liberally in the old organization.. It's a living, I guess..

I dunno. Maybe its not that far off.. what if "a woman", "a man" and the "too many ministers" do not exist, existed only in his narrative? Or the woman with fear in her heart and life that lost the child? Wouldn't those be "actual errors" as well as fraud? just a thought..

yeah, it took the lawyers to do it. Considering the general opinion wayfers I knew had of lawyers, it is *interesting* that lawyers ended up having more *scruples* than god's supposed "elect"..

I think for all that money, all they got to show for it was a gold plated turd..

I'd add.. was she WORTH what twi paid? Kinda over-priced, if you ask me.. its another case of *your* abs at work. What did it buy.. well, it bought a cushy job (apparently) for life, and immunity from CRIMINAL prosecution for this kind of filth.. to sit free, on top of the organization.. every whim (or possible lust) satisfied.. I could think of far better uses for several million dollars..

hmm.. adept in lying.. must be one of the new "qualifications" for "leadership" in the church or something.. I must have missed it somewhere.. The ONLY reason she still has a job- MONEY. How many millions did the organization sacrifice to settle the little All*n court case? Money- lawyers- and she had the organizations blind backing. As an organization, I don't think they would have survived the trial. Then there was talk about criminal negligence and such.. and what did the money buy? Practically- it bought them "another day".. and kept a group intact where business could run as USUAL.. I wonder how many staff and "participants" still don't know about these accounts.. They made their intentions well known with the a**ens. Put up with sexual harrasment and/or *rape* as condition of employment, or we will list you mark and avoid, label you as possessed and send you off packing in the middle of the night.. that is the reality of the situation. Then came the lawyers.. Personally, it is hard for me to even imagine someone can be that evil.. but the facts bear it out.

Maybe loy and she were married in a previous life. Looking at both of them together, they kinda look like Ahab and Jezebel, do they not?

and part of *your* *abundant sharing* pays for her salary. Healer of the *ministry*? So far it seems her skill set is limited to being able to pick out targets for the lawyers..

interesting that the queen of Filth who let this *little* matter happen on her watch still reigns over the organization.. same "board member" whose solitary vote sends lawyers screaming at churches and organizations with the slightest resemblance to their precious name..