Ham

and the character assassination of someone who didn't agree with da way's interpretation of adultery.. forced abortions.. drugging, and or seduction of women.. etc. etc. I can't forgive them in behalf of this.. Maybe the best resolution I can have in this situation is "I never did or would never do this s*it.. they are NOT, nor ever have been my brethren.."

I really don't know.. I tend to attribute attacks on people from da way, specifically from those who run the organization, not much unlike that of wild animals.. it's their nature, they do what they do. Can you forgive an attack from a wild animal? Maybe it depends on the individual.. the severity of the attack.. lots of factors. The brutal savaging the P*olings by the donster.. blaming them for Ron Br*wn's death.. and loy's savaging of many, many others.. can one even forgive that? And how dare one attempt to forgive on behalf of another? "sorry mr. bear.. my friend really isn't upset you made off with his arms, a leg and half his brain.." "friend, jesus demands that you forgive.." It's just an observation.. no bitterness or anything..

kinda like an animal that has acquired a taste for human blood.. I really don't see any difference between this, and those who run the organization.. I think there is a reference in the old testament.. how difficult is is to "handle" those of "their type".. and, in conclusion.. no, they have not asked for forgiveness. From me, or anyone I know.. for ANYTHING. Ever. Neither do I expect it..

would it just be fair to simply realize they are not "brethren" and leave it at that? I mean.. that's kind of given at this point. Maybe that's all the closure one can have.. am I looking for apologies, from THEM? not really. they do what they do.. they are what they are.. what they are will never allow them to apologize, for anything. They can't mourn.. or be repentant.. its not in their nature.. kinda like a bear.. you just happened to be between it and food, or it thought you were food.. Christian? I don't think so.. they are more to be compared to brute beasts.. now I don't hold a grudge against ALL bears. Most of them haven't maimed me or something.. forgive the bear? I've seen interviews of people who were attacked by bears.. the superior mind tries to figure out why they were attacked.. and the frequent reason was that they just happened to be there.. I think an equivalent question might be.. can you forgive the bear.. understand, perhaps. But forgive? I dunno.. I haven't seen any mandates from Jesus lately, demanding forgiveness to bears for bear attacks.. No, they aren't "christian". Please don't read bitterness here. There is none.. I don't anticipate at whatever eternal reward I'm supposed to recieve.. "and thou, slothful servant, whomst held a grudge against mindless attacks of wild beats and vermin.." j.l... I just don't see it.. just a side note. What does society do with an animal that trespasses in the land of humans and kills and maims? just a thought.. I haven't seen negotiations or forgiveness or anything..

but can you "forgive" on the behalf of others? seems only the almighty has that kind of authority.. the only reasonable or fair way of doing that would be to provide restitution for the wronged first. what if all they want isn't eternal pie in the sky, but a small, insignificant return of their time and money, and some their youth and innocence? seems the almighty should be able to perform this lesser task as well..

that's the whole point, isn't it? :) so apparently, we don't let the offender go entirely free, do we? And as per Waysider's suggestion, my answer here is "no. They have never asked me to forgive them for stealing my time and money, allowing my sisters in the church to be pillaged and raped and worse." In fact, I can't think of a single time they've even admitted to anything like this, while not being bound to tell da truth under oath..

maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we". Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers. It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something.. why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different? They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are. no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..

Mr. Phoenix rising.. I'm sorry. For you. you would have been better off fighting off competition in a masters degree program somewhere.. and there is no guarantee of success.. anywhere.. your bachelors.. isn't worth a crap in the new environment.. maybe that is all I should say.. kids from other countries would have you for lunch.. Yeah.. they might have me as well. I hope the meal is nutritious..

*he* reads here.. don't ask me how I know.. I just know.. so.. how are you going to explain it.. when your followers.. start. 1. breaking bones. Yes, it's happened already. How do I know? Well.. I'm da Squirrel. See all, know all and all of that.. 2. arriving late. to da appointment.. i.e. the gweatest experience of da worodagawd.. no greatness here. It's happened before.. 3. Rapes, fondeling and pillages.. if not now, they are to come. How do you reconcile that with a *perfect* standing? we'll see..

I'd say government is worse.. but no. I couldn't believe it.. last year I got a letter from the IRS. No, it wasn't an audit.. THEY were chasing ME down trying to give me a refund.. no frigging joke.. cmon, way international.. aren't you every bit BETTER than some godless government entity?

and just why is it that I'd agree..

and like another Bridge to Nowhere.. they aren't giving any money back.

reminds me of a time in the old testament.. the Eunuchs hanging around that place need to reclaim it..

Part 2:

and why is it, some think it is ALWAYS the right thing to do.. to forgive a debt.. debt seems to revolve around "community". *they* don't think they are *community* anymore.. does that make it so? They have made themselves "rich in this world".. I'd consider that section of scripture along with the others about supposed forgiveness.. but then they've proven they are not "brethren". Forgive them? Technically, I don't see the biblical mandate applying here.. it's just a thought. Take it as you will..

maybe you should have left it at that.. I think your post is typical of way black and white thinking. If one shuts their mouth, they are meek or humble or something.. if one speaks up about ungodliness, they are bitter.. one or the other.. sixty some years old? Kinda old for one dimensional thinking, wouldn't you think?

lyrics for part one:

I shouldn't listen to this stuff.. but I can't help myself. Moth to a flame..

A lot of the songs seem almost to me.. like mourning for the death of a loved one.. I understand that as a musician he was brilliant.. at least that seems to be the story.. then one day he's gone. But he isn't.. Is he still there, or isn't he.. kind of like a divorce.. yeah, still there in memory..

Yep, so much nicer, run by an little old lady(?)

Posted on another thread. But I had to put it here for you music lovers..

heh.. well, maybe the question should be.. when hq is gone, who is going to turn out the lights? da mrs is gone. Not going to be her..

maybe.. people have figured out that's the agreement they've made with this existence.. to deal with Sunday (afternoon fellowhip) obligations.. (false way or such, the label doesn't make any difference) ministers in pulpits (in front of herr vey validated lecterns) and the like.. people generally seem to tolerate religion, way brand, and otherwise.. well, it's just a thought. and let's not mention the tolerance of *pretenders* to da throne..

I dunno.. if it would just "roll away".. that would be one thing... sowie.. Must just not be "available" or something..