markomalley

Here's another, very detailed, article on the subject. Caution though: it comes from the an advocacy source, therefore, it is hardly neutral. However, even with the POV inserted, if the information is factual, it provides a HUGE amount of insight: From phoenixnewtimes.com Originally published by Phoenix New Times Feb 24, 2005 ©2005 New Times, Inc. All rights reserved. Cross to Bare For 20 years Dale Fushek was the golden boy of the Phoenix Catholic Diocese. Now, his golden boys are talking BY ROBERT NELSON Mark Poutenis Monsignor Dale Fushek had long been the rock star of the Catholic Church in the United States. He founded America's largest program for Catholic teenagers, Life Teen, at his parish in the East Valley in 1985. Today, about 100,000 high-school-age Catholics across the country attend his program each week. As the flamboyant, charismatic leader of that program, Fushek reigned as the de facto spokesman for the country's Catholic youth. He is credited with bringing America's young Catholics back to the church by energizing, personalizing and modernizing church doctrine. He also is credited with bringing Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa to the Valley. During the pope's visits to Tempe in 1987 and to St. Louis in 1999, Fushek organized and led major youth events associated with the trips, essentially serving as the ambassador to John Paul II and the national media for America's next generation of Catholics. Fushek, not long ago second in command to former bishop Thomas O'Brien, also was arguably the most powerful, popular and financially connected priest in Arizona. He was so connected, for example, that he both successfully solicited massive donations from Charles Keating and later became close friends with the man credited with dismantling Keating's crooked savings-and-loan empire, local attorney Mike Manning. But, for two decades, there also have been whispers. Fellow priests used to joke that Fushek created Life Teen to "get teens." A mounting number of former Life Teen members and church employees lately are saying that wasn't a joke. New Times interviewed several former employees, co-workers, fellow priests and students of Fushek's, some in exclusive interviews within days of their giving sworn statements to investigators for the Maricopa County Attorney's Office regarding the monsignor. Together, their stories depict a spiritual leader with a chillingly calculated pattern of recruitment and seduction of teenage boys spanning at least a decade. "Dale is a master at normalizing deviant behavior," says one of his alleged victims, who has spoken to the County Attorney's Office in its month-old investigation of Fushek. "What kills me is thinking about how many kids out there he affected who are afraid to talk," says Mark Olsen, a Life Teen member in the late 1980s and now a businessman in Mesa. "Dale scared me away from religion at a critical time in my life. Who else has he done this to?" Fushek was placed on administrative leave by Bishop Thomas Olmsted in late December after Olmsted was notified that Fushek was accused in a lawsuit of masturbating while watching a sexual assault on William Cesolini, then 14, by convicted child molester Mark Lehman, who served under Fushek at St. Timothy Catholic Church in Mesa for two months in the 1980s. Olmsted then notified the County Attorney's Office, which opened an investigation of the activities of Fushek and his top assistant, Phil Baniewicz, whom Cesolini says in the suit looked on as he was sexually accosted by Lehman. Through his attorney, Manning, Fushek denies that he ever inappropriately touched teenagers or subordinates, or witnessed any sexual assault by others. Baniewicz also denies the claims. Lehman, confronted at his home with the allegations, declined to comment. Manning, the longtime friend of Fushek's and a board member of Life Teen since the mid-1990s, went further regarding the Cesolini complaint. "Cesolini is delusional," says Manning, who also is representing Baniewicz. "Frankly, regarding Life Teen, the real story is that, even with hundreds of thousands of teens involved in such an emotionally charged environment, there has never been a single complaint filed by a teen against a priest," Manning says. He's saying there's been no complaint against a priest by a teen in the 842 parishes worldwide where the program is used. Cesolini, who was a teen when he was allegedly assaulted, waited until he was an adult to complain. At St. Tim's, the dearth of complaints by teens, Fushek's accusers say, had more to do with fear of retaliation than lack of abuse. And to imply there were never sexual indiscretions surrounding Fushek and his program is a profound case of mincing words. For one, Fushek has worked with, lived with and mentored a who's-who of priests accused or convicted of preying on children. Besides Mark Lehman, who spent 10 years in prison for molesting children, there was Father Patrick Colleary, who is awaiting extradition from Ireland on two counts of felony sexual conduct with a minor, and Joseph Lessard, who served three years' probation for a 1985 molestation conviction. All lived with and worked closely with Fushek at either St. Tim's or at his earlier post at St. Jerome's in Phoenix. In 2002, a Life Teen volunteer and former Life Teen employee at St. Tim's, Mark Gherna, was sentenced to a year in prison on three counts of sexual misconduct with a minor. A fellow priest, who soon will be meeting with county attorney's investigators, claims he walked in on Fushek with his hands down a boy's pants at St. Tim's in the mid-1980s. The priest also says he reported the incident to then-bishop O'Brien, a close friend of Fushek's, who responded by chastising the priest for bringing the accusation. There is no record of this complaint in diocesan files, diocese officials say. And in 1995, the Phoenix Diocese quietly settled a sexual-harassment claim against Fushek by a former Life Teen employee. Fushek has described that case, which was blanketed with a confidentiality agreement, as a misunderstanding by the former worker. "Several years ago," Fushek told his parishioners at St. Tim's in 2002, "I found myself in a situation where my own words and actions, which I considered to be words and actions of affection, were interpreted by an adult staff member as having sexual connotations." In an extensive interview with New Times, the victim in that case, Jim Partsch, paints a much less innocent picture of Fushek's actions and intentions. He says Fushek obsessively questioned him about his sexual practices and desires and, on several occasions, cajoled Partsch into bathing naked with him in Fushek's hot tub at the St. Tim's rectory. "My only goal in complaining back then was to get Dale the therapy he needed," Partsch says from his home in Colorado. "He agreed he needed treatment, but then he just turned it all around. You end up finding out he's an amazingly manipulative human being." Partsch's former fiancée, who lived in Mesa during Partsch's time with Life Teen, agreed with Partsch's assessment. "There was so much emotional and sexual manipulation," says Rini Montano, who now lives in California. "Jim was a wreck for quite a while after he got away from Fushek. [Father Dale] completely messed with Jim's mind." Fushek's emotional and sexual manipulation of Partsch appears to be, at least among young men Fushek brought into the inner circle of the group, more the rule than the exception. Cesolini's attorney, for example, says he now has 50 witnesses who will be called in the case, many of them people who contacted him with information and allegations regarding Fushek. A similar wave of information is hitting the state's support group for victims of priest abuse. "We're beginning to hear this same story again and again," says Paul Pfaffenberger, leader of the Arizona chapter of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. "That there was unwanted sexual contact by Dale Fushek, and that it came about through this very manipulative grooming process associated with Life Teen. There is definitely a pattern of behavior beginning to form." But while a pattern of grossly inappropriate behavior seems clear in Fushek's past, county prosecutors say criminal actions will be much harder to prove. There are statute-of-limitations issues regarding several statements by victims. Fushek has yet to be accused of penetrating anyone, minor or young adult, male, female, consensual or otherwise. And for the most part, Fushek apparently knew the law regarding sexual assault on a minor better than most cops. "That's the other pattern," Pfaffenberger says. "For most of these guys, the really heavy stuff didn't start until after they were 18." In three cases, Fushek is accused of getting naked and inviting teens into his bed for back rubs and tickling fests within one month of their 18th birthdays. "These guys were all adults -- technically," Pfaffenberger says. "It was like he kept all their birthdays on a special calendar." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dale Fushek, now 52, has described his own adolescence as a difficult, confusing time. And like many young Catholics in the 1960s and early 1970s, he found the church a joyless place that had little relevance in his life. Fushek was born in Cleveland. After his family moved to the Valley in 1960, he attended Central High School in Phoenix. He has told different stories about why his high school years were difficult. Partsch and Montano both say Fushek was clear on several occasions that he believed he struggled with questions about his sexuality. "Father Dale was saying that, at that time, people didn't come out about being homosexual," Montano says. It was his cross to bear. She remembers Fushek's saying that "for a lot of guys in that situation, the seminary was a sort of safe haven." It didn't mean much to Partsch and Montano at the time. Who cared? A sizable percentage of priests in the Phoenix Diocese were homosexual. As one former diocesan official tells New Times: "About the only guys you could assume were straight were the 'FBIs' -- the Foreign-Born Irish." The fact is, studies show, most priests maintain their vows of celibacy -- except, perhaps, for a dalliance or two. There are those, however, who chronically violate their oath. Most of the chronics either date other priests or have discreet relationships with adult partners. The identities of the celibates, straight or gay, and the names of the clerics who take their vows far less seriously are poorly kept secrets inside Phoenix's sometimes catty priest community. There is a smaller group that clearly likes young males. There is a still smaller group -- including Lehman, George Bredemann, Lessard, John Giandelone -- that likes children. They are pedophiles. Between, there are the pederasts, the priests who like adolescent boys. Which leads to this point: There is a very fine line -- a single day, in fact -- between criminal pederasty, statutory rape and legal sexual contact between two adults. And then, further graying the grayest of areas, there's the Clintonian question of what exactly is sex? The most serious accusations against Fushek are that he watched the sexual assault of a child by Lehman and once put his hand down a boy's pants. Mostly, he variably is accused of watching, groping, running around naked, suggesting others do the same, and obsessing over young men's underwear and masturbatory practices. What is highly inappropriate behavior, especially by a spiritual leader in charge of young people, is not always illegal behavior. According to his alleged victims, Dale Fushek seemed much more aware of the lines between legal and illegal than the lines between appropriate and inappropriate, helpful and devastating. After high school, Fushek attended St. John's Seminary in Camarillo, California, just north of Los Angeles. The seminary, it was later documented, was a breeding ground for pedophiles and pedophile protectors in the church. Fushek received his master's in divinity there. He was ordained in 1978. His first assignment was at St. Jerome's in Phoenix under Richard Moyer, who later became vicar-general, second in command under Thomas O'Brien, Phoenix's former bishop. In 2000, Fushek joined Moyer as co-vicar-general under O'Brien. At St. Jerome's, Fushek began building a youth program that would become the precursor to Life Teen. During his stay at St. Jerome's, Fushek pursued his master's of liturgy from the University of Notre Dame by spending summers in South Bend, Indiana. As he studied the church's liturgy, he said he became increasingly convinced that the church had to speak to young Americans in ways that were relevant to their lives. Under Fushek, teens became involved with all levels of the liturgy, from planning to acting as Eucharistic ministers and readers. Besides a Sunday evening Mass designed specifically for teens, a high-energy Mass full of fun and rollicking music, Fushek's program also involved lengthy group and individual discussions of the issues teens were facing. Sex, drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, anything that affected teenagers and challenged their faith. Fushek moved over to St. Tim's in 1985 and began Life Teen in 1986. Within only a few years, Life Teen was picked up by churches around the country. And Fushek was becoming a star both at home and nationally. It was quickly apparent, too, that Dale Fushek was Bishop Thomas O'Brien's golden boy. Fushek's Life Teen program brought the Diocese of Phoenix the most positive local and national press ever. Fushek also proved himself to be a whiz at organizing major events, and a charismatic spokesperson when those events arrived. And as Fushek ascended the diocesan chain of command, he increasingly became in charge of forging O'Brien's own legacy as "The Builder Bishop." In turn, Fushek's critics say, O'Brien refused to hear critical words about his beloved henchman. By 1990, it seemed clear that Dale Fushek would someday succeed O'Brien. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Partsch had always been a huge fan of Dale Fushek's. Using Fushek's Life Teen program at his own parish in Grand Junction, Colorado, Partsch had watched a whole generation of the city's Catholics become excited and inspired by their faith. "It was a great program," says Partsch, who is not a priest. "We took the model and made it our own, and it ended up being extremely successful." Dale Fushek became a fan of Jim Partsch's, too. Here was an energetic, charismatic and well-organized young man who ran one of the most successful programs outside of the Valley. Partsch attended Life Teen conferences at St. Tim's in 1990, when Partsch was 20, then again in 1991. After the visits, Partsch says, Fushek began calling him often in Colorado. Fushek told him he was worried about Partsch's spiritual growth. But the topic always seemed to be sex -- whether Partsch was having sex with his girlfriend, whether he masturbated, whether she masturbated him, whether he thought about men. Partsch kept a journal through the early and mid-1990s. He showed that journal to New Times. From July 1992: "I returned home from Mesa July 2. On July 5, Fr. Dale called me to see how I was doing. He questioned me about my sexuality with my girlfriend. He wanted to know how I was doing with masturbation, had I done anything with my girlfriend? He would ask very bluntly questions like: 'Did she masturbate you? Did you finger her? How far would you go?' I said, 'I didn't know,' he then asked: 'Would you have intercourse? Would you shower with her? Would you have oral sex?' I responded to his questions. Then he talked about the Life Teen Program, and he told me how things were in Arizona, but he never asked about our program. He then left a number of messages for me on my answering machine." Although Fushek's questions made him uncomfortable, Partsch trusted Father Dale, who told him that he wanted Partsch's sex life to be right with God. One year later, in June of 1993, Fushek offered Partsch the full-time paid position of director of Life Teen at St. Tim's. The job had been held by Phil Baniewicz, also a layperson, who was moving on to become director of the national Life Teen program. One thing quickly struck Partsch in the first few weeks of his work in the Valley. "In Grand Junction, the program was all about spirituality," he says. "I got down to Arizona, and it seemed like Father Dale spent most of the time talking about sex." Partsch found himself being invited more and more to Fushek's room at the rectory. More journal entries: "Dale talked to me about needing to be naked on both the inside and outside. Couldn't understand why I didn't feel comfortable hanging around the rectory in my underwear." "He bought me underwear as a gift and later asked if I was wearing them. He asked if I would show them to him." "He got me to hot tub with him in our underwear and said 'relax -- just be comfortable,' and 'this is how you get to be intimate friends -- naked on the inside and outside.'" "He asked me to spend the night and cuddle, and he would hold me tight, and he said he felt connected and 'I love you so much! I'm glad you're here!'" "In bed he would kiss me on the neck and cheek, and he would try to wrestle about. He would rub my back and get his hand down to my underwear line." "I was so scared . . . not knowing what he was going to do." The entries continue: There was the trip to the cabin in which Fushek kept walking in on Partsch while he bathed to talk about sex. More talk of relaxing and being more comfortable with his and Dale's bodies. "He encouraged me to get my picture taken by a photographer I knew, in my underwear, and he asked if I would get a picture naked. He bet I wouldn't get my picture taken in my underwear but that if I did, he wanted to see [it]." "He said he only wanted me to go to confession to him." "He always [was] speaking of 'true loyalty.'" Later entries show the toll on Partsch's well-being. He writes of being depressed. He writes of contemplating suicide. He writes of not knowing how to get out of the situation. He felt deceived, felt like he "was brought to St. Tim's to be Fr. Dale's pet." Montano, Partsch's fiancée at the time, says she noticed Partsch becoming more distant and more depressed as the months passed. One evening, Montano says, Partsch came over to her apartment happy about a recent retreat he had organized. He opened his journal and asked Montano to read what he thought were pages he had written about the retreat. But they were the pages about Fushek. "I'm reading this, and it's like, 'Oh my God, what is this?'" she tells New Times in a phone interview from California. "We were up all night [after that]. I was just telling him he had to do something. It was just so wrong what Dale was doing." Partsch resigned from Life Teen during a Life Teen-sponsored excursion to Italy. During the trip, which Baniewicz also took, Partsch told his predecessor in Phoenix what Fushek had done to him. According to Partsch, Baniewicz -- who had often described Fushek as the "father I never had" -- defended Fushek and, apparently, later told Fushek everything Partsch had said. At that point, Partsch says, Fushek began telling people that Partsch "had problems and needed help." Partsch and Montano sought advice from a priest they knew in California. That priest told Partsch he needed to explain the situation to the bishop in Phoenix. When the couple returned to Phoenix, Partsch went to the diocese. When Fushek heard that Partsch was going to the bishop, Montano says, Fushek went to Montano's apartment. "There's this knock at the door, and there's Father Dale," Montano says. "I said, 'Jim isn't here.' He said, 'I'm here to see you.' "He tells me: 'Look, I know I have a dark side. But I'm dealing with the issue of homosexuality. Jim engaged in it, so he must have a problem, too. There's got to be some way the three of us can go to counseling.'" Montano says she told Fushek to leave. Partsch spoke to diocesan chancellor Sister Mary Ann Winters, before heading to St. Tim's to pick up his final paycheck. He had been told Fushek wouldn't be there. But Partsch ran into Father Dale in a back room at the church. There, Partsch says, Fushek gave the same pitch he had given to Montano. "He was crying and apologizing for what he had done to me," Partsch says. "He said he was 'dealing with the homosexuality issue in [his] life,' which is how he had said it to Rini. He fully admitted a need for long-term therapy. At that point, I was just very happy and relieved. He could get the help he needed and nobody else would get hurt. That's all that mattered." Fushek never sought therapy, though. Diocese officials apparently didn't take the complaint seriously, either. In time, Partsch says, Fushek took a different route: "He just started slandering me." On the California priest's advice, Partsch got an attorney. In 1996, the Phoenix Diocese paid Partsch $45,000 in a secret settlement. However, Partsch says, Fushek broke the confidentiality agreement several times in the last nine years in attempts to downplay the incidences. So, Partsch says, "We're clearly no longer bound by that agreement." Partsch and Montano moved back to Grand Junction together. But Partsch was a different man by then, she says. "He was depressed, he couldn't make decisions, he was just floundering," she says. "At some point, I just couldn't take it anymore. We had to split up." Partsch now has his own business. He's back on his feet, he says, and strong again in his faith. "But that guy put a big hole in my life," he says. "I just pray for the others who have had to go through this." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Cesolini is known to friends and family as Billy. For those who know him, the youthful nickname still fits. He is a frail, gentle, deeply devout man, and those who know him say he wouldn't hurt a fly and wouldn't know how to lie. Fushek, Baniewicz and attorney Manning aren't calling Billy a liar. Billy, they suggest, very well may believe his delusions are real. Billy Cesolini was 14 years old when his parents and seven siblings moved to the Valley from Massachusetts in 1985. The Cesolinis began attending church at St. Tim's, and Billy became involved with the church's youth program. Until two years ago, Cesolini apparently had buried his memories about his time at St. Tim's. Cesolini eventually ended up attending Mount Angel Seminary in California. From there, he went to live in a California monastery. But besides struggling with emotional issues, Cesolini, who is gay, was also being harassed and followed by a domineering ex-lover. Cesolini decided to leave the monastery and return to Phoenix. Cesolini went to see his priest at St. Anne's in Gilbert. The priest, Father Doug Lorig, sent Cesolini to a counselor, Sheila Howe, who works out of the St. Anne's offices. Cesolini began therapy in August of 2002. Six months later, Cesolini attended a concert in Sedona with a Valley priest. During the trip, the priest made a sexual advance on Cesolini. That advance triggered a flood of what Billy and his supporters believe are memories of Fushek and Baniewicz watching Lehman sexually assault him, and what Fushek and Baniewicz's supporters believe are twisted dreams. Some of Fushek's supporters even see conspiracy in Cesolini's claims. They point to a long-running feud between Fushek and Lorig, pastor of St. Anne's, the only parish in the Valley that surpasses St. Tim's in membership. "We believe this may have been manufactured or implanted by someone," Manning says. Interestingly, the problems between Fushek and Lorig began during Fushek's troubles with Jim Partsch in the mid-1990s. Partsch had talked with Lorig before going to diocese officials. Fushek, angry that Lorig had spoken with Partsch, retaliated by spreading grossly trumped-up allegations about Lorig's beating his son (Lorig, who converted from Episcopalian to Catholic ministry after starting a family, is the only married priest in the Phoenix Diocese). Essentially, Fushek learned that Lorig had paddled his oldest son. So Fushek went to Winters, the diocesan chancellor, and said that Father Lorig was a violent child abuser. Lorig would not speak to New Times. But the allegedly abused son, Michael, now a business owner in Mesa, did speak. "Fushek just made up a bunch of stuff to try to get my father," Mike Lorig says. "It was as simple as that. Fushek just flat-out made false allegations." As history has shown, no impropriety involving the Catholic Church is complete without alleged conspiracy. Fushek and Baniewicz's supporters are quick to note that Cesolini's flood of memories, which poured forth in February 2003, at first only involved Mark Lehman. It wasn't until 10 months later that Cesolini began remembering Fushek and Baniewicz's alleged involvement. Mental-health professionals counter, however, that it is not at all uncommon for painful memories to come back in shattered pieces. The picture Billy Cesolini now sees is this: In 1985, shortly after Cesolini moved to the Valley at age 14, he was befriended at St. Tim's by Lehman, who, five years later, would begin the 10-year prison sentence for molesting children at a different parish. One day, Lehman took Cesolini to play tennis. After tennis, while sitting in a parking lot, Lehman begins making sexual advances toward Cesolini. Lehman then takes Cesolini back to the priest's bedroom at the St. Tim's rectory and sodomizes him. Lehman, at his home in central Phoenix, told New Times he could not speak on advice of his attorney. "I would very much like to tell the whole story to you," he said. "But the way the world is, I've been told I can't. I wish the world wasn't this way, but it is." Cesolini says Lehman sodomized him several more times after that. Baniewicz, he claims, was only involved twice. Fushek, once. Cesolini remembers walking down a hallway at the rectory one day after he had been sodomized by Lehman in Lehman's room. Baniewicz, Cesolini claims, emerged from a separate room in his underwear and stopped Cesolini. "You like what you see?" Cesolini quotes Baniewicz as asking. In his lawsuit, Cesolini says Baniewicz then pulled him into his room and sodomized him. Manning says this allegation is "laughable." The attorney says about Baniewicz, who is married with children: "Phil's problem is that he struggles with his absolute disgust with other people's homosexuality. The guy is about as fiercely heterosexual as you get." Cesolini remembers one more visit to the rectory. Lehman invited him to dinner. Cesolini remembers having Italian food and wine with Lehman, Baniewicz and Fushek. He remembers feeling tipsy. He remembers Lehman taking him back to his bedroom. He claims Baniewicz came into the room and rubbed his chest and kissed him on the neck. He remembers Fushek walking in, sitting down and watching as Lehman and Baniewicz touched him. He remembers Lehman getting on his knees and performing oral sex on him. And he remembers Fushek looking on and masturbating. He remembers crying afterward. He remembers Fushek telling him to compose himself. "You need to stop crying," he quotes Fushek as saying, "or your mom will think something is wrong." He remembers composing himself before his mother picked him up from the rectory. He says he saw Lehman only once more -- at a St. Tim's ice cream social. Then, Lehman moved on to St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic School, where he sexually assaulted several children in the late 1980s. Fushek wrote to the judge after Lehman's conviction asking for leniency. Lehman was released from prison in early 2002 after 10 years. Upon Lehman's release, church officials gave him a $1,000 advance as well as $400 to set up an apartment. The parents of Lehman's victims were infuriated when they learned of the payouts. At the time, one of the parents said the diocese's continued financial support of Lehman looked like "hush money of some sort." Church officials countered that it was simply their responsibility to help Lehman get reestablished in the outside world. Essentially, says Billy Cesolini, that is all he has ever wanted, too. "I just want to heal," he says today. "But I feel I must talk, too, because there may be others out there who have been hurt." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Olsen, now a businessman in Mesa, was more your typical Life Teen member. Fushek and Baniewicz often targeted popular high school kids to join their program. They felt that, basically, if the cool kids were doing it, everybody would want to do it. In 1988, Olsen was a 15-year-old sophomore at Dobson High School and a member of the junior varsity baseball team. At the time, Phil Baniewicz was helping coach the baseball team. One day after practice, Baniewicz invited Olsen and three other ball players to attend a Life Teen meeting at St. Tim's. "I was interested," Olsen says. "I wasn't a religious kid, but I was certainly curious about religion." Olsen began attending meetings with friends. Early on, they went on a Life Teen retreat in the mountains around Payson. "Every night on the retreat, Father Dale would walk into our bunkhouse and give . . . guys a kiss on the lips," Olsen says. "I remember thinking it was awfully weird. But [somebody said]: 'Oh, settle down, that's just what priests do.' "Looking back, it's amazing what things were passed off as normal behavior." Through his two years in the program, Olsen says, Fushek increasingly began talking with him. And the topic increasingly involved sex and masturbation. "He was fascinated that I was having sex with my girlfriend at the time," Olsen says. "He was always asking about it. And he talked about erections a lot, about masturbating. It was really uncomfortable, but as a kid, you just figure the guy's trying to save your soul or whatever." One afternoon, when Olsen was 17, Fushek invited Olsen to have dinner with him. The two went to a nearby Sizzler. Throughout dinner, Olsen says, Fushek drilled him with questions about his sex life and what thoughts give him erections. "I remember asking him: 'Well, what happens to you when you see a good-looking girl with a great body?' And [Fushek] says, 'I get an erection.' At the time, I'm thinking that's a pretty honest answer from a priest. Now I'm just thinking why the hell was this guy always asking a teenager about his erections?" After dinner, Fushek invited Olsen back to the rectory. There, Olsen says, Fushek suggested they go into the hot tub together. All of a sudden, Olsen says, Fushek is tossing a pair of swim trunks at him as Fushek is pulling off his own pants. "He just drops his pants right there," Olsen says. "He's buck naked, and he just stands there watching me while I change. At this point, I'm getting really nervous." Olsen followed Fushek into the hot tub. Fushek, he says, quickly began talking about sex again. "At that point, I finally bolt," Olsen says. "That was it. It was just too weird." "I mean, you start thinking of everything," he says. "What the hell am I doing there? Why does a priest have swim trunks that fit a boy? What the hell is a priest doing having a hot tub? And who the hell invites kids to hot tub with them? And who the hell hot tubs in the middle of a Phoenix summer? And what would have happened had I stuck around with him until I was 18?" Olsen went home and told his mom what happened and that he was quitting Life Teen. "I was shocked about what he told me," Diane Olsen recalls. "But, the fact is, I didn't do anything at the time. I didn't want to embarrass Mark. He wanted to handle it himself, and I let him. And, to tell the truth, we just weren't sure what route to take. "I was just happy Mark had made the decision to leave. For us, that was the end of it." Olsen's story is frighteningly similar to the stories of others who are now stepping forward. Three other men, now in their 30s, say that, within weeks after their 18th birthdays, Fushek had them naked in his bed, touching and tickling them and telling them they needed to be more comfortable with their bodies. "All of them took issue with his advances at the time," says Pfaffenberger, the state SNAP leader who also has talked with the three men, all of whom wish to remain anonymous. "But Dale would just keep normalizing the behavior. His line was that being comfortable with each other's bodies was a way to get comfortable with God, and one way to learn vulnerability with God was to be physically vulnerable with each other." It's a pickup line Pfaffenberger has heard over and over as he has talked to victims around the country. The men also tell stories similar to Partsch's. Gifts of underwear. Being asked to model their underwear. Being cajoled to get naked. In one case, one of Fushek's former Life Teen underlings, who was 21 at the time, claims Fushek had him go to his home and bring all of his underwear back to the rectory. He says Fushek then had him write the letters "FD" upside down on the crotch of the underwear. The idea, the young man was told: If he got an erection, the letters FD (short for Father Dale) would rise up to remind him of his sin. All three of the men have given, or will be giving, sworn statements to county attorney's investigator Mark Stribling. Fushek has admitted in depositions that he has hot-tubbed naked with other adult males at the rectory. But he admits to no inappropriate -- much less illegal -- activity. Fushek refused to discuss the allegations against him with New Times. And Manning admits that he has never asked Fushek about what he did with young men of legal age. "We simply haven't talked about that," Manning says. "What I do know, again, is that none of these complaints has ever come forward before now. Doesn't that seem odd? For 20 years, nothing. Nothing to the board of Life Teen, nothing to the diocese -- except Partsch. "I have a pretty good ^#$*@ antenna," Manning says, "and I never heard that alarm sounding [regarding Fushek]. That in itself says something to me." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dale Fushek's stock already was falling within the diocese before Cesolini's allegations came out in December. But before 2004, his stock was always blue chip. When close friend Bishop O'Brien named him vicar-general of the diocese in April of 2000, he became second in command over nearly half a million Catholics in central and northern Arizona. In February 2001, he was given the honorary title of monsignor by Pope John Paul II. At that time, it seemed very clear that Fushek would be the next bishop once O'Brien, then already 65, retired. In 2002, all that changed as new scandals emerged in the Phoenix Diocese. Overarching the new charges of abuse by area priests was evidence that O'Brien and his underlings had long covered up reports of abuse by Valley priests. O'Brien was found to have often quietly shipped abusive priests to new parishes without notifying staff or parishioners of the priests' pasts. A county attorney's inquiry ensued. Investigators found proof of a cover-up, and O'Brien, in an immunity agreement, admitted shuffling troubled priests from parish to parish during his tenure. It was also believed that Moyer and Fushek knew of and assisted in the moving of problem priests. In June 2003, O'Brien resigned after his arrest in a fatal hit-and-run accident. O'Brien was later convicted in the notorious case, becoming the first Roman Catholic bishop in the United States to be convicted of a felony. It was Fushek who went to O'Brien with news that his church superiors were requesting his resignation. In April 2004, new bishop Thomas Olmsted removed both Fushek and his old mentor, Richard Moyer, as co-vicars-general. Fushek was reassigned to oversee building projects for the diocese. In late December, after receiving word of the Cesolini complaint, Bishop Olmsted immediately placed Fushek on administrative leave until an internal investigation is completed. Olmsted also notified the County Attorney's Office, which opened its investigation. Considering the way the diocese has handled past allegations against priests, Olmsted's response to the Cesolini complaint was startling in its swiftness and decisiveness. "All of a sudden, they're holding a press conference and Fushek is being placed on administrative leave," says Cesolini's attorney, Frank Verderame. "Frankly, it blew me away. You get the sense that they know something I don't. "It appears these next few months are going to be very informative," the attorney says. "This is how it happens, this is how it has happened here in the past," says SNAP's Pfaffenberger (whose group can be contacted by calling 480-600-7811). "One person finds the courage to speak, and that inspires others. And that is the process that leads us to the truth." OK, so why am I trying to bring out all this gory detail: 1) because it is relatively current 2) because Life Teen has been severely criticized in more conservative, orthodox circles. This tends to substantiate some of the concern expressed. 3) because the way the diocese, under Bishop Olmsted, has dealt with Fushek shows how it should be done everywhere. Had Olmsted's predecessor, O'Brien, shown this much courage during his tenure, a lot of people wouldn't have been hurt by this scumbag.

FWIW, I ran into this article when Googling Dale Fushek. I thought you'd find it interesting: Priests split on handling abuse Phoenix clergy answer survey Joseph A. Reaves The Arizona Republic Dec. 1, 2002 12:00 AM Priests of the Phoenix Diocese are angry and deeply divided about how both Bishop Thomas O'Brien and the media have dealt with allegations of sexual abuse in the church, a survey by The Arizona Republic found. The unscientific mail survey marked the first time many rank-and-file clergy have publicly expressed their opinions about what is being called a crisis in the Catholic Church. Fifty-two priests, roughly one of every five in the Phoenix Diocese, responded. "Thank you for asking us what we think," one frustrated priest wrote. "Our bishop sure hasn't!" advertisement Among those who responded, half think O'Brien has done a good job dealing with sex-abuse allegations. Slightly more than half feel local reporting is biased. And 68 percent were critical of Maricopa County Attorney Rick Romley's investigation of the church. "I think Mr. Romley is using the situation to look tough on crime and secure his political future, even while being concerned for the protection of children," one priest wrote. Half of the 44 priests who responded to a question about O'Brien's handling of sex-abuse allegations said they strongly agree or agree somewhat that the bishop has done a good job. Not all priests responded to every question. "We have to help offenders find new roles to improve society, help heal the victims and do what is possible to prevent such abuses in the future," one priest wrote. "I believe that our bishop is trying to do this and deserves better treatment than he receives." Among the 22 who disagreed with O'Brien's leadership, one criticized the bishop for failing to take "any personal responsibility." Another called for the bishop to resign. "The bishop is the one who should take responsibility," he wrote. "He is the one who should resign." Opportunity to speak The Republic sought to give priests an opportunity to speak candidly through the anonymous survey, which posed nine questions and offered space for comments. The survey was mailed Nov. 14-15 to 248 diocesan priests and clergy from religious orders such as Jesuits and Holy Cross. Their names and addresses were collected from the Diocese of Phoenix listings in the 2002 edition of the Official Catholic Directory. Each priest received the one-page survey, a six-paragraph cover letter and a generic, postage-paid return envelope. Diocese advised The Republic sent a draft of the cover letter and the survey to the diocese on Nov. 7 and offered to make any changes O'Brien, his advisers or attorneys suggested. The newspaper also said it was willing to share all data collected from the survey before publication. Diocese spokeswoman Kim Sue Lia Perkes said the church wanted nothing to do with the project and asked the newspaper to make that position known to priests. The Republic honored her request with a line in the cover letter, which read, "The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix does not approve of this survey." Despite that admonition, 52 priests replied and three volunteered their names. The return rate of 21 percent was twice what some experts say is a reasonable response for unsolicited mail surveys. But it was far too small to be considered a representative sample. The Republic presents these results solely as an anecdotal account of those priests who chose to speak, much as if a reporter had interviewed random clergy. The percentages reflect only sentiments of those who felt strongly enough to respond, not necessarily the prevailing opinion among priests in the diocese. The fact that nearly 80 percent failed to respond may indicate how sensitive the subject is or how much influence the church hierarchy has over its priests. "Dear Sir," one priest wrote on his unmarked survey, "Since the diocese does not approve of this survey, I refuse to respond." That priest was one of seven who replied but refused to respond to the questions. Of those priests who replied, 73 percent included comments. Their remarks ranged from angry hand-scrawled notes to a carefully composed four-page, single-spaced letter. Six dominant themes emerged from the comments. Five topics were direct results of the wording of the questions: the media, O'Brien, Romley, homosexuality and reporting criminal acts to authorities. Other churches A sixth theme that emerged independent of the questions was whether local media coverage ignored or downplayed sex abuse in other religions. Ten priests raised the issue, complaining that local news outlets, particularly The Republic, concentrated unfairly on sex abuse in the Catholic Church. "I have no problems with the media reporting about abuse that has taken place within the Catholic Church," one priest wrote. "In the long run, we will benefit from this. "However, there is widespread sexual abuse with the Protestant Church, and the media doesn't seem to pay much attention to this." Another priest was more blunt. "The acts of pedophilia and child abuse or any sexual perversions by members of the Protestant clergy, Jewish, Mormons or society at large were always on the last page, while the Catholics made the front page." priests used the survey to vent frustrations with Monsignor Dale J. Fushek, vicar general of the Phoenix Diocese and co-founder of LifeTeen, the nation's largest Catholic youth organization. Fushek acknowledged this year that he settled a sexual-harassment suit with a male LifeTeen employee out of court for $45,000. "Msgr. Dale Fushek should be removed," one priest wrote. Another wrote: "Msgr. Dale Fushek from St. Timothy's should resign." Neither cited any reason for the sentiment or even why they brought up the issue. Nothing in the survey alluded to Fushek, LifeTeen or his parish, St. Timothy's in Mesa. Process of healing Many of those who responded clearly were troubled by the allegations and the inability of the church in general, and the Phoenix Diocese in particular, to move beyond the controversy. "Many of us are frustrated and disheartened by the experience, which has driven a wedge between us, the people we serve, those who deserve healing, and the offenders," one priest said in a typewritten note on the back of his survey. "The seeming delight in our public humiliation slows down the process of healing without stopping it, while the search for truth, which I have no doubt many of you are engaged in, will help bring about the healing." This article was from 2002. So obviously the information on Fushek is nothing new. FWIW, Fushek's mentor, Archbishop O'Brien, resigned in scandal in 2003. Fushek was O'Brien's Vicar General. The current archbishop of Phoenix, Olmstead, removed Fushek from his post as Vicar General in 2004. More in a bit...

I am so sorry to hear about your cousins being abused. I had no idea.

I believe a fundamental re-examination of the doctrinal basics surrounding TWI itself need to be re-examined. As long as they teach a theology that makes the MOGFOT concept possible, then the Way Corps program will always breed bunches of mini-MOGs. (MOGFOT: Man of God for our Time) (mini-MOG: miniature man of Gods) I see nothing in the world wrong with a group of people who want nothing more than to serve God with their whole heart, mind, and body. And give up all material possessions to enable that service. This exists in many different denominations. But the theology of TWI seems to draw some people (not hardly all) who, rather than embracing this kind of attitude of self-sacrifice and service, are seduced by power.

LOL!!! You have family in Johnson County or Martin County?

mstar, Celibacy is a requirement for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. It is considered a discipline vice a doctrine. The Eastern Rites (e.g., Maronite, Chaldean, etc.) have always allowed a married man to be ordained into the diaconate and the presbyteriate (but not the episcopate) (in plain english, deacons, priests, but not bishops). However, it must be pointed out that once they are ordained, they may not marry. In addition, there have been a significant number of Episcopal/ Anglican priests who have decided to convert, particularly since many of the Anglican churches started allowing the "ordination" of women in the late '70s. A rather large number of them have been ordained after a period of formation, married or not. I have read in a couple of spots that this privilege may be extended to Lutheran priests who convert, as well (but I don't believe that this is the case, yet). As to the issue of 3-year absitenance, read the actual content of the document I quoted earlier. The key sentence is this: If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. It clearly is NOT saying that a practicing, acknowledged homosexual is eligible for ordination if he can keep it zipped for three years. It is saying that if somebody experimented with it/ flirted with it, etc., they need to have overcome the tendencies (the word tendancy does NOT equate with actually doing the act, it more closely equates with even considering the act) for three years. Having said that, are the US bishops going to enforce this? That is a completely different question, altogether.

I think that is why a lot of Protestants have adopted this devotion in their own lives. As you found out, the stations are a powerful tool to help us appreciate exactly what He did for us. And, back to the specific point, this is the first step in truly developing that close relationship with Him. Thanks for sharing that!

Free Soul, Welcome to gsc! A suggestion to you in regard to your need to go to church somewhere. Take a little time off! Relax! It will take a while to get the twi cobwebs out of the head...but they need to be shaken loose! Then check out a batch of them. A different one every week! I might suggest 2 or 3 different ones from the same denomination even. There are differences in congregations, believe me. Even if you find one you like, keep looking! Don't just do the nondenominationals or the fundamentalists...check out the traditional/ liturgical ones like the Lutherans or Episcopals, as well. If there is an Eastern Orthodox church in your area, go to one of their liturgies...you will NEVER see anything as beautiful as a well-done orthodox litugy (and they are usually VERY nice people and almost always have GOOD food). If you have questions on the doctrine of a particular group, you can more than likely find it on the web...or you can ask here. I think just about every brand of Christianity is represented by some poster here. You can usually get a good answer (of course, depending upon the denomination, you may have to wade through a bunch of **DON'T DO IT** posts, as well). But the point is to check out a batch of churches and find the one or ones you feel comfortable with. But first take a little time and get YOU back. Again, welcome!

Thank you for your kind words and welcome to gsc. Hope you stick around for a while. You will find a diversity of opinions here...everything from people who still go with basically the doctrine that twi taught, to calvinists, to Catholics (no, I'm not the only one), to Jews, to Agnostics, to burnt-out-on-it-all, to neo-Pagans, etc. You can learn a whole bunch if you're willing to listen and look with honest, open eyes. You may be interested in checking out the Doctrine forum...we have some pretty good scriptural discussions there from a whole host of point of views. Again, you may be able to learn something if you're willing to look honestly at what you have been taught... Regardless, welcome aboard!

As to be expected, the news media (Reuters, etc.) did not EXACTLY get it right. Here is an unofficial English translation of the Latin document leaked today. The official document is scheduled to be released on the 29th of November: II. Homosexuality and ordained ministry From Vatican II until today, several documents of the Magisterium—and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church— have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The Catechism differentiates between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies. Regarding acts, it teaches that, in Sacred Scripture, these are presented as grave sins. Tradition has constantly considered them to be intrinsically immoral and contrary to natural law. These, consequently, may not be approved in any case. Concerning profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, that one discovers in a certain number of men and women, these are also objectively disordered and often constitute a trial, even for these men and women. These people must be received with respect and delicacy; one will avoid every mark of unjust discrimination with respect to them. These are called to realize the will of God in their lives and to unite to the Sacrifice of the Lord the difficulties that they may encounter. In light of this teaching, this department, in agreement with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, holds it necessary clearly to affirm that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, may not admit to the seminary and Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, show profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture. The above persons find themselves, in fact, in a situation that gravely obstructs a right way of relating with men and women. The negative consequences that may derive from the Ordination of persons with profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies are by no means to by ignored. If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. (BTW, a person is ordained to the diaconate for at least one year before being ordained into the presbyteriate). One other thing, though. This is not new guidance. The following is guidance that was issued back in 1961: Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers. From: Careful Selection And Training of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders, Canon Law Digest V, 1961.

Funny you mention that: My (current for 15 years) wife's aunt married a Catholic up in Fancy Farm (a little town south of Cairo). That aunt's family (all First Christian) disowned her for about 5 years. They only started communicating with her a few years ago. I have a cousin, who is a United Baptist preacher way back in a hollow (pronounced holler) in Johnson County...it's so far back that Van Lear (the home of Loretta Lynn) is considered a big city (for anybody who might know, it's a hamlet called Offutt -- it's at the mouth of Greasy Hollow...where Greasy Creek dumps into the Levisa Fork of the Big Sandy river. So we're talking REALLY country. United Baptist: it's a little bit to the strict side of the Primative Baptists. His daughter went to Morehead State (about 1/2 way between Lexington and Ashland). About a year in, she converted to Catholicism. The father (the United Baptist preacher) actually took it very well. Her mother, on the other hand, was totally heartbroken. BTW, their younger daughter, who just started college, has taken a liking to the Episcopal church. So they might survive...

Long time ago. She was a true saint. Wonderful heart. Here's a funny: she was a born Catholic. Her father really, really wanted a Catholic funeral. Me, I thought, fine, OK. Doesn't really matter. Her sisters, as I recall, were both WC grads. Guess who said a Rosary for the repose of my late wife's soul? Guess who were the only ones saying it? Yup, right on both counts! It suits me just fine, now, as I can imagine you realize. But it was a HUGE shock to me at that time. Anyway, I am certain that she is with Christ. So, no worries... (mind you I still have a Mass said every year on the anniversary of her death...) But thanks for the kind thoughts.

I am very thankful for the Advanced Class, myself. I took AC'88 at Emporia. It was an enlightening experience for me. Being a mere peon, the highest "spiritual giant" I had met prior to that time was Joe Guarini (requisat in pacem) or Wolfgang Schneider. At that time, I thought that the VAST marjority of people in TWI were incredible men/women of God. I heard the greatness of their teachings either on tape or at the Rock. All the believers I had run into until that time had nothing but praise for these spiritual giants. It really never had occured to me that it could all be a lie. I then had the chance to meet a few of the true giants in the ministry. T*m J*nki*s was example #1. Then I actually had the great honor of meeting Loy Craig Martin(puke). I had some questions during the conduct of the class, but, then when I met the forehead, I knew something was horribly wrong. Initially, I thought that it might have been me...but the thought was planted. And I started looking and asking questions and reading "unapproved" stuff (this is long before Waydale or Trancechat or whatever else). ROA 88 came...unlike the previous two I had the privilege of attending since returning to the states (I got into TWI while stationed in Germany), I didn't remember being horribly "blessed," tremendously motivated to go back and "move the Word," etc. Something was HORRIBLY wrong. Literally, the only things I remember from that ROA were (1) sitting outside the big top during one of the keynote "teachings" and laughing my a$$ off and (2) having some really good sex (I'll leave the details out of this for the moment)...one incident in particular that stands out in my mind, but again, propriety tells me to leave it alone. But that's IT!!! I was, frankly, relieved it was done and was well glad to go back home. And then I started running into more disaffected way corps and hearing things. I got ahold of a copy of the POP. etc., etc. And then I get married and my first wife died. (she went off her epilepsy meds and had a seizure/swallowed her tongue while asleep...thank you TWI for teaching her the "law of believing" so thoroughly) And then I have the inestimable privilege of meeting everybody's buddy Rico M, when he was on his interim corps year in Carbondale, IL. And then I see the infamous loyalty letter, shown to me by my WC T/C. (Who, btw, was DFAC not long after I left) And I knew it was time to leave. I had a permanent change of station move coming up, so I decided that this would be the best time to drop off the face of the planet...hoping that things would sort themselves out while I was stationed overseas...and the rest is history. All of this started as a result of going to AC88. When I see the living h3ll that those of you who were in TWI through the '90s had to deal with, looking back on it, I think the $450-$500 price tag of the AC was CHEAP...after all, it opened my eyes so that I could start seeing the truth of the matter...and was able to avoid the hell of TWI II/ TWI III (depending upon whose breakdown you read). So I, for one, am VERY grateful for the Advanced Class!!!

***Please Read the Whole Post*** Ladies, If I can something to help you grow in your relationship with the Lord Jesus that have traditionally been used by Catholics for centuries: the Stations of the Cross. Yeah, I know, how dare I ask that you consider doing a Catholic devotion? Right? Well, the fact is that they are both scriptural in nature...particularly the devotional/meditative components of the devotions. The Stations of the Cross originated with pilgrims who would travel to the Holy Land (on pilgrimage). The stations were points along the Via Delorosa (the way of suffering) travelled by Jesus during His passion...you can read about it in the Gospels, if you'd like. Since the earliest times of Christianity, pilgrims flocked to the Holy Land and walked along the traditional route Christ took (recorded as early as 381 by St. Jerome). After the Muslims took control of the Holy Land in the middle ages, it became more and more difficult and dangerous for Pilgrims to make the trip. In towns throughout Europe, little shrines were erected, representing the Way of the Cross. In short, as I said before, they were representative of the Passion of Christ. The traditional version of the stations can be found here, here, or here. A Protestantized version of the station can be found here. Obviously, we all know which version I'd prefer; however, doing the meditations on Christ's passion is a very powerful way in which one can grow more appreciative of what He did for us. There are other devotional prayers and meditations on scripture passages that one can prayerfully undertake, as well. A meditation on the beatitudes is a tremendous example, as well. But the point is that prayerful meditation on His life is a good way to grow in your feelings of closeness. Note I'm talking about meditative reading and prayer, vice an intellectual study trying with the mind to uncover something new. Let God work within you...

((papist burp))

I pray that you will be able to find an answer that will be satisfying.

As for me, the only issue I have is with the word "regenerated" (out of the bolded text). Which is pretty good when speaking in regards to a Calvinist Heretic! ;)

Raf, LOL!!!

PROBE ON 'WRONG TO DIE' CASE Nov 11 2005 A EUTHANASIA charity are being investigated over the death of a healthy German "suicide tourist." Dignitas believed the woman was terminally ill when they helped her take a lethal cocktail of drugs. But it later emerged that she had given them a false medical certificate. Prosecutors are now probing the incident at Dignitas's Swiss clinic. The doctor who helped the 69-year-old German administer the fatal drugs has since committed suicide. Yesterday, Dignitas founder Ludwig Minelli denied they had done anything wrong. He added: "Every person in Europe has the right to choose to die." Euthanasia is legal in Switzerland and Dignitas have helped 453 people end their lives Bolding mine. There have been some similar issues involving the death penalty.

Matthew 25:31-40 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me. From what I recall, this was about the exact opposite of what we were taught in TWI. I seem to recall contributing anything to help those in this situation was only "good" but not "best." And since we only did the "best" (puke), we were not to have anything to do with helping the poor. Matthew 25:41-46 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the evil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

That's Papist Scum to you, sir!

Skol

Garth, it would clearly have to go in the Doctrine Decaffeinated Forum!

Sorry to disappoint, old man. Thanks for the nice words. Believe it or not, the intellect is the main reason why I am a Catholic. Despite all efforts to the contrary, I have always had this unshakable belief in God. As I said over in Geo's "Why Religion" thread, it's just something that has always been there for me since I was but a wee tot. And, to tell you the truth, despite looking at pretty much all of the various varieties of Christianity, Catholicism was the only one that I found truly intellectually satisfying. Having said that, the Catholicism I practice and teach to my children is hardly the simplistic, superstituous, voodoo that it is accused of (and how some people practice). But I recognize that there are some who believe that any belief in a supreme being (outside of themselves) is simply mumbo-jumbo. And that's just fine. Anyway, as to your specific questions: Purgatory for babies? Where did that come from??? 15th Century abuse of indulgences?? Admittedly an abuse by a horrible Pope...one that was suppressed by the Council of Trent a few years after the Reformation (the actual quote suppressing the practice I quoted earlier in the thread, if you are curious...yeah, right) Look, Sudo, I have no arguments with anybody on the subject of religion (or lack thereof). Generally speaking, outside of the Doctrine forum, I rarely bring the subject up. I figure that it's a personal decision one way or the other. And as long as people don't start slamming each other (particularly with inaccurate information), then we ought to be able to respect each other's beliefs. The only reason I vociferously started defending Catholic beliefs here was that a person brought up that he went back to Mass and enjoyed it and was thinking of going back. And, as is usually the case here, somebody else decided to start slamming the beliefs of the Church (and not as you did, above, which I take as good-natured ribbing). And the slams were not based on legitimate criticism, but on inaccuracies. Again, I do sincerely appreciate your nice words. Sorry that my beliefs are a disappointment to you; however, I've held those beliefs since long before I started posting on gsc.

Sure, Archie. Actually, Catholics should not be allowed to vote either. In fact, Catholics should have their citizenship stripped away. Sheesh. Give me a break. Again, as usual, you take your positions to a ridiculous extreme. Most people I know of, Catholic or not, vote for a person not only because he makes every conceivable promise, they vote for the person because they believe that he will make the right decision in a given circumstance. Kennedy's private life aside, I don't believe he made any policy decisions that were counter to the official policy of the Church. If JFK would have supported laws that undermined the teachings of the Church, then, yes, I'd say he was being less loyal to his God. He may have; I just can't think of any examples (again, his private life is a different matter completely...but he kept that private and scandal was not involved). Many modern so-called Catholic politicians seem to take pleasure in sticking their tongues out at the teachings of the Church, blowing a big, wet raspberry, and daring the Church to say something. Then if the Church has the audacity to say something...and the something being the politician's status as a Catholic...the politician (and sympathizers like you) starts screaming "Separation of Church and State" over and over, ad nauseum. As I alluded to previously, if a politician chooses to advance policy that is directly counter to the teachings of the Church, so be it. That politician should simply stop using the label "Catholic" next to his name and shouldn't automatically expect to receive communion. By the way, Archie, I don't particularly enjoy this pain in the arse questions. Not that they are all that difficult to answer, but they are a waste of perfectly good electrons. The only trouble is, I do feel honor bound to answer.