markomalley

If you look at post #22 on this thread (http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=8370&view=findpost&p=199584), you will fin a list of four sites that I use and a review of each. Hope that helps

As with many others, I met a lot of really wonderful people who had wonderful hearts for God and for each other...really living the Great Commandment of Christ. (I also met a lot of a$$holes...but this is a positive thread) But I think the most lasting thing that God was able to ignite in me as a consequence of being involved with TWI was an academic curiosity about things that I had abandoned somewhere along the way. Much of the specific learning from the Bible was taught incorrectly and had to be un-learned. But the innate curiosity that I try to apply to all areas of my life anymore -- academics, religion, work, home, etc. -- really started during my involvement with TWI. And that curiosity has served well through the years.

FYI, the word Easter is an anglicisation of the word Eostre, who was the Teutonic goddess of light, day, spring. Here is the interesting part of this: the Scandinavian languages and Germanic languages use Easter to represent the Solemnity of the Resurrection of Our Lord (the technical name of the day). In all other cases that I've seen, the word corresponds to the word "pasch" (meaning passover from the Hebrew pasech). In Italian, it's Pasque, in French, it's Pâques, in Greek it's pascha, in Spanish it's pascua. The customs associated with Easter are, from my experience, largely confined to the same regions. In Southern Europe, that I've seen, the habits are far less 'pagan' in nature -- still nice, but a lot more clearly identifiable as associated with the purpose of the holiday. Christmas is another story altogether. An interesting history on how the date of the Solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord (it's 'official' name) can be found here. According to the article, the holiday wasn't even celebrated until after 200 AD (at any time of the year) and the date wasn't officially set until This article debunks the Saturnalia theory and assigns the most credibility to the 'christianization' of the Roman holiday 'Natalis Invicti' (or birth of the sun) as a likely reason for the particular date. However, in another section of the article, it says the following: <blockquote>This checks the so-called correspondence between Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386) and Pope Julius I (337-352), quoted by John of Nikiu (c. 900) to convert Armenia to 25 December (see P.L., VIII, 964 sqq.). Cyril declares that his clergy cannot, on the single feast of Birth and Baptism, make a double procession to Bethlehem and Jordan. (This later practice is here an anachronism.) He asks Julius to assign the true date of the nativity "from census documents brought by Titus to Rome"; Julius assigns 25 December.</blockquote> Julius would have had access to the archival census records if they existed. But, on the other hand, they might not have existed 350-360 years after the fact. The bottom line is that there is no conclusive reason as to why it was assigned a certain day. It's not conclusive that it was a replacement for a pagan holiday...it's not for certain that it's for a rational reason...but the important thing is to celebrate the nativity of the Lord...whenever it's celebrated...

Belle, I am very happy for you that you believe you are in a place where you're ready to start exploring some spirituality again. That's an important point, imho, of healing and moving on with your life. So hat's off to you. Danny and I are usually on different ends of the doctrinal wars...he being a Marcionite and me being a Catholic...however, we manage to be able to keep good humor and respect for each other...one thing we have in common is a respect for Patristic writings... All I can say in a recommendation for you is to check it ALL out in your hunt. It never ceases to amaze me where I had limited my understanding of God and ability to worship Him because of some preconceived notion gotten through TWI. A lot of time's it is sneaky the prejudices that you will have almost subconciously. That can limit you... The biggest thing is to remember that the purpose of this all is to help us worship God. He needs to be the end of this. The Bible was given to us as a tool for us to know Him and to help us worship Him. But He is the end of it. Beyond all the doctrinal stuff, the most important thing is to grow in love for Him and for each other. Doctrine should teach you how best to do that. I can't speak for ANYBODY else here, but that is my ultimate goal in all of this minutia. Anyway, good luck with it!

Full article here. Damages claim for abortion twin A mother is hoping to win £250,000 in compensation after her twin daughter survived an abortion four years ago. Stacy Dow, from Perth, was 16 when she found out she was pregnant with twins and decided to have an abortion. However, when she returned to her doctor after 33 weeks she was told one of the babies had survived. Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust said there had been nothing to suggest a child had survived and plans to challenge the claim in court next year. The surviving baby, Jayde, is now four. Her mother is claiming the damages for the "financial burden" of her upbringing. In a landmark legal case, lawyers will argue that as a result of the failed termination, she suffered loss, injury and damage... and suffers "an impediment in her ability to obtain employment in consequence of her care for the child." (snip) Ms Dow's action states: "As a result of the failed termination the pursuer suffered loss, injury and damage. She suffered distress and anxiety upon the discovery of her continuing pregnancy. "She required to undergo an elective C-section. She suffered pain and discomfort in consequence of surgery. "She has the financial burden of care, upbringing and aliment of Jayde. She suffers an impediment in her ability to obtain employment in consequence of her care for the child." (snip) Jayde now lives with her mother and grandparents Douglas, 40, and Barbara, 41. Miss Dow said she thought long and hard before deciding to pursue the legal claim because of the potential impact it would have on her daughter. "I have got a child now that I wasn't planning to have and I believe the hospital should take some responsibility for that," she said. "They should have known, or at least warned me, that I might still be pregnant when I left. It has totally changed my life and my parents' lives. "I still don't know if, or what, I am going to tell Jayde when the time comes. Maybe when she is nine or 10 I will sit her down and explain it to her." She added: "The hospital knew it was twins when I went for the termination so they should have checked even more carefully before sending me home." (remainder snipped) How would you like to be this kid? (and you KNOW some news media -- the mirror, the sun, or something -- is going to find this kid and ask the kid what she thinks. Then imagine this conversation between a mother and a 4-year old: "Gee honey, I tried to abort you but the doctors messed up!" "What's abort mean mommy?" "It's where I tried to keep you from being born" "But why mommy?" "Because I love you honey" ((barf))

"This would be a very interesting study and comparison. What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi?" Oldies, Read the Acts of the Apostles. Read non-canoncial writings as well from around that era -- not that those writings will pronounce any kind of new doctrine, but they can tend to reveal what people in those days thought about an issue. If you're really curious, that's what I'd suggest. Of course that implies that you'd be really curious...

Sure you have the opportunity to try. Absolutely. But try what?

Raf, No argument there. But that's the point I was trying to drive at (at the cost of derailing the Geer thread). If Wierwille was on the level (a big if), then the failure must have been God-ordained (unless God isn't omniscient, after all). If Wierwille was not on the level -- and if he claimed 'hevvy revvy' about the selection, then he was a fraud. If he, on the other hand, was stating that he was using '5 senses' logic, then wouldn't that have gone against the principles he vaunted continuously? That's why I'd love to find out if, in fact, 'hevvy revvy' was claimed. Not whether people believe he actually received revelation in this case. Just whether he claimed that he did or not.

Raf, You should read 1 Sam 8... 1 In his old age Samuel appointed his sons judges over Israel. 2 His first-born was named Joel, his second son, Abijah; they judged at Beer-sheba. 3 His sons did not follow his example but sought illicit gain and accepted bribes, perverting justice. 4 Therefore all the elders of Israel came in a body to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, "Now that you are old, and your sons do not follow your example, appoint a king over us, as other nations have, to judge us." 6 Samuel was displeased when they asked for a king to judge them. He prayed to the LORD, however, 7 who said in answer: "Grant the people's every request. It is not you they reject, they are rejecting me as their king. 8 As they have treated me constantly from the day I brought them up from Egypt to this day, deserting me and worshiping strange gods, so do they treat you too. 9 Now grant their request; but at the same time, warn them solemnly and inform them of the rights of the king who will rule them." 10 Samuel delivered the message of the LORD in full to those who were asking him for a king. 11 He told them: "The rights of the king who will rule you will be as follows: He will take your sons and assign them to his chariots and horses, and they will run before his chariot. 12 He will also appoint from among them his commanders of groups of a thousand and of a hundred soldiers. He will set them to do his plowing and his harvesting, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will use your daughters as ointment-makers, as cooks, and as bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive groves, and give them to his officials. 15 He will tithe your crops and your vineyards, and give the revenue to his eunuchs and his slaves. 16 He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best oxen and your asses, and use them to do his work. 17 He will tithe your flocks and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When this takes place, you will complain against the king whom you have chosen, but on that day the LORD will not answer you." 19 The people, however, refused to listen to Samuel's warning and said, "Not so! There must be a king over us. 20 We too must be like other nations, with a king to rule us and to lead us in warfare and fight our battles." 21 When Samuel had listened to all the people had to say, he repeated it to the LORD, 22 who then said to him, "Grant their request and appoint a king to rule them." Samuel thereupon said to the men of Israel, "Each of you go to his own city." Having said that, I would submit that God (in his foreknowledge) knew exactly how Saul would turn out when he gave Samuel the revelation to dump oil on Saul's head.

Atlantic Tropical Weather Outlook -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 000 ABNT20 KNHC 010315 TWOAT TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOK NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL 1030 PM EST WED NOV 30 2005 FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO... THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER IS ISSUING ADVISORIES ON TROPICAL STORM EPSILON... LOCATED OVER THE CENTRAL ATLANTIC ABOUT 700 MILES EAST-SOUTHEAST OF BERMUDA AND ABOUT 1615 MILES WEST-SOUTHWEST OF THE AZORES ISLANDS. ELSEWHERE... TROPICAL STORM FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED THROUGH THURSDAY. TODAY IS THE OFFICIAL END OF THE 2005 ATLANTIC HURRICANE SEASON... AND THIS IS THE LAST TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOK OF THE SEASON. ATLANTIC TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOKS WILL RESUME ON JUNE 1 2006. WHILE THIS IS THE LAST OUTLOOK...ADVISORIES ON TROPICAL STORM EPSILON WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE STORM DISSIPATES. FORECASTER BEVEN $$ Uh-huh. Sure. That's what you say now. Right.

This is a spin-off from the Chris Geer thread. Very simple purpose: Did Wierwille claim that he received revelation to name Martindale as his successor? How often was that claim made? Was the claim made verbally only (e.g., at lunchtime Corps meetings)? Was that claim made on a teaching tape? Was that claim made in the Way Magazine? Was that claim made in any of the books published? Now, for the purposes of this question, I don't care so much about anybody's opinion as to the adequacy of the choice or anything else. I just want to know if a revelatory claim was made, at the time, of Martindale's appointment. Thanks for all your help!

Good of you to say this. I seem to recall (and perhaps somebody with more experience can correct me) that there was this huge religious ceremony at the innauguration of Martindale. The passing of the pelt and the blessing of salt, or some such thing (I really don't remember, sorry). And the impression I was given was that Wierwille indicated that he received revelation that Martindale was God's choice to carry on as president of TWI. Once again, maybe somebody whose memory is better than mine may be able to help me out here. My point is this, again, for the third time (sorry if the repetitiveness gets to you). If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!). If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted? If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined. I distinctly remember being taught in TWI that if a prophet isn't right-on 100% of the time (when he claims to be speaking by revelation), then he is either a fraud or is getting his hevvy revvy from the wrong side. Well, doesn't that standard apply to everybody?

Actually, the Supreme Court has said: "In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense. " (Keep in mind that I agree with you on a moral point) What makes this so dangerous is that this is just another legal precedent that gives a fetus personhood. And if a fetus, through legal precedent is assigned 'personhood,' then Roe v Wade may have grounds to be overturned.

Tomahawk Man Sentenced for Abusing Wife, Harming Unborn Child Tomahawk Man Sentenced for Abusing Wife, Harming Unborn Child Amanda Lutz In October, 25-year-old Robert Elliott pleaded guilty to four charges, including attempted first degree homicide of an unborn child. Thursday, he was sentenced for his crimes. Lincoln County District Attorney Don Dunphy calls this case one of the most heinous and vicious crimes he's ever seen. Back in January, 25-year-old Robert Elliott repeatedly beat his pregnant wife intending to harm their unborn child, and abused her in front of their children. Prosecutors say Elliott's abuse caused major trauma to the fetus; his wife eventually miscarried. He pleaded guilty to charges in October, and his reportedly violent outbursts were reason enough for Dunphy to go after the maximum penalty. "His behavior is, to say it's over the top, would be a diminutive statement, but that's what it is, over the top. He's a dangerous man," Dunphy said at the sentence hearing. But in court, Elliott's wife and mother both asked the judge to spare him of a long prison sentence, adding he's fine when on medication to control his anger. Elliott personally apologized to his family for his actions, and said he's willing to change and break the abuse cycle. With that information in mind, Judge Jay Tlusty sentenced him to 15 years behind bars, plus 33 on parole. "I feel with 15 years confinement, you're going to make the changes you believe you're going to make. You'll be able to get the medication and the help you need," Tlusty told Elliott after he handed down the sentence. At the earliest, Elliot will be eligible for parole in 2020. link: http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/2046092.html It would have been interesting to see how this would have come out had he pled innocent. I thought that a fetus was not a 'person' with rights (in other words, a potential murder victim). Your thoughts?

A gift of generosity goes awry Ties are broken when a vacant home offered to a displaced Katrina family is left in disarray By Rona Marech and Mary Gail Hare sun reporters December 2, 2005 The Brown family of Louisiana fled Hurricane Katrina with nothing. The DiMaggio family and its Westminster church, the Firm Foundation Worship Center, had a vacant home and the desire to help. But what seemed like a fortunate connection gradually dissolved into a flurry of accusations and bruised feelings. Sandra and Keith Brown, who drove to Carroll County after the hurricane with seven of their eight children, say their hosts were patronizing and disrespectful. The DiMaggios said the Browns left the house in disarray and didn't appreciate all the community had done for them. The DiMaggios were stunned, they said, when they found the words "MD sucks" spray-painted on the new white siding on the home's exterior. While cases of generosity gone awry are in the minority, disaster-relief experts say some misunderstanding and frustration are practically inevitable as people - even those with the best intentions - come to terms with what it means to help and be helped. A man from Nashville, Tenn., who had opened his vacant retirement home to a family of Katrina evacuees said the family left the property damaged and filled with trash, an experience that he said "left a bad taste in my mouth." In a Minnesota town, the story of two women who took in a family displaced by Katrina - highlighted on Good Morning America - ended unhappily, after tensions in the household led to the Louisiana family leaving. "There are times when people expect a grateful victim," said Ande Miller, the executive director of National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster, a Virginia association of faith-based institutions and other disaster relief agencies. "We don't always pay attention to the fact that they've had a terrible thing happen to them, and it's hard to be grateful when your home was just destroyed. You have to put in perspective what we're asking them to be grateful for." It's unclear exactly how and when the relationship between the DiMaggios and the Browns unraveled. But most of the Brown family left for Louisiana on Sunday without so much as a "thank you" to the congregation, church members said. When Firm Foundation Worship Center pastors and several members of the congregation visited the home shortly after the Sunday service, they found piles of donated clothing littering the porch. A trampoline lent to the children was slashed. A small hole around the electrical socket in the bathroom is now much larger. Trash, broken glass and clutter filled the house, said the DiMaggios, who have since cleaned up with help from volunteers. "We gave them a house to live in for free, so that they could work and save their money to get back on their feet," said Marge DiMaggio. "They had nothing when they came, and we were happy to help them. We passed on donations that came to us for them." Donations included a car, a refrigerator, washing machine and clothing for the family. Keith and Sandra Brown said two of their sons, who have found jobs and remained in Westminster, were planning to clean the house once the remaining family had moved out. Elijah Brown, 19, helped with the cleaning Monday. Josh Brown, 22, who admitted spray painting the words on the house, has promised to remove the graffiti. It's unclear whether the two brothers, who are living with other volunteers, are going to stay in town. "I am more grateful than anyone will ever know. People we hardly knew gave us so many things. I have thank-you cards ready. ... I really thought Maryland was beautiful, and I felt truly blessed," Sandra Brown said in a phone interview yesterday. But she said some church members continued to act like the house was their own and "treated my husband and me like children." Rosalind Blakey, who connected the two families through her grassroots organization, Home Resources Services, said church members would "come into their house and not knock and tell them it was time to get up and not to sleep so late. ... Treating them as if they were their project or their assignment." Paul Wilson, the executive director of Katrinahous ing.org, a Salt Lake City-based organization that helped connect thousands of donors with evacuees in need of housing, said he has received all-too-many after-the-fact e-mails from exasperated survivors and benefactors. "You're going to have conflicts like this arise when people open their homes," Wilson said. "It's not fun to see the ugly side of humanity. It hasn't soured me, but it's not easy to bear a lot of this." Carroll County's tempest has at least partially cooled, however. Most of the Browns, who didn't intend to stay in Maryland, are back home trying to rebuild. "You can try to make it as cozy as you can here for them, but their home was in Louisiana," Blakey said. The DiMaggios said they're moving on. "We are not discouraged, and this won't stop us from helping other people in need," said Marge DiMaggio. "If you help 100 people and three of them don't treat you right," her husband said, "it doesn't stop you from helping." Fortunately, some folks like giving of themselves and their stuff for the pleasure of giving!

Oh, so they were not operating "all 9 all the time?" They did not discern spirits properly or weren't operating the "word of wisdom"? Sure, I can allow for that possibility, no problem, Oldies. In which case, it still means that they (all three of them) were not the men for the job. After all, would God not have protected "his ministry" (barf)? If they, all three of them, could be so badly deceived by such an obvious deception, it means they were, at best, weak. At worst, it means they allowed themselves to be influenced by "devil spirits." At either end of the spectrum, they clearly were not the men for the job!!! And if this is the case, then that further reinforces the statement I made: Now, they were appointed by the so-called MOG, Mr. Wierwille, who received 'revelation' as to whom he should appoint. If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!). If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted? If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined. That can lead to only one possible conclusion, as I stated before: In any of the three cases listed above, it's obvious that TWI had to fall!

ROTFLMAO!!! Truer words have never been spoken!

You know, honestly, White Dove, I don't remember enough specific detail from TWI classes anymore to be able to honestly discuss it with anybody. I do remember some 'people'-type details, but that's that. So I'll have to take your word for it one way or the other. I will agree though that I only saw a very small minority who didn't SIT by the end of session 12.

That might be mischaracterizing my post a bit. Let us say that the truth of the situation came out as a result of this, whether or not the specific details of that document were factual or not. The handwritten comments say the following: 3/22/86 I've read this several times. I believe it to be the truth. It must be adhered to for the survival of this ministry. I stand with The Teacher and the truth of his last words. I love you. signed: L. Craig Martindale I read it and all is true. I've felt it and didn't know what to do. So I will change to do my best for the man I helped kill. signed: Howard R. Allen I've read this and am thankful for the revelation. I apologize for not having followed my "man of God." I shall be a doer of the Word more and more as I renew my commitment to God's Word. Thank you Chris for having eyes to see and ears to hear. signed: Donald F. Wierwille Those signatures on the paper confirm that the BOD believed it to be factual. Or they confirmed that those men were liars. If they were liars, they had no business running (so called) "God's Ministry." Now, they were appointed by the so-called MOG, Mr. Wierwille, who received 'revelation' as to whom he should appoint. If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!). If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted? If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined. In any of the three cases listed above, it's obvious that TWI had to fall!

Oldies, Now read what I said again, real close. To re-iterate, I said whether or not, crazy or not, perverted or not, evil or not, the effect of what Chris Geer did was ultimately good for all of us who decided to leave in the late 80s. Because had the insanity that happened after POP, etc., not happened, we would have likely stayed in and continued to be sucked in the garbage that is TWI. I Never said I thought he was truthful or lying or accurate or full of sh1t. I wasn't there. What I did say was as follows: Howard, if Chris Geer ever did anything good, this was it. Whether or not POP was true or not, "he tore the lid off the sucka." I, being a lowly leaf, didn't hear about POP for a long time after the fact, but when I did, that, along with being shown/ told about the "loyalty letter," were the two key events that sealed my decision to depart. emphasis added Please note that I did not express an opinion one way or the other on the validity of the document. Regardless of whether or not it was true or not, it was read and chaos ensued. Those are undeniable facts. Correct? Shoot, Oldies, I was way too low on the food chain to know one way or the other. And I refuse to speculate on that one way or the other. I then went in about the paranoia and xenophobia that characterized the TWI of the '90s. None of this was stated, as you can tell if you actually READ what I wrote, as an endorsement of Chris Geer in any way, shape, or form. It was an endorsement of the (likely unintentional) effect of what he did.

WTNT34 KNHC 021420 TCPAT4 BULLETIN HURRICANE EPSILON ADVISORY NUMBER 13 NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL 11 AM AST FRI DEC 02 2005 ...EPSILON BECOMES YET ANOTHER HURRICANE IN THE RECORD BREAKING 2005 ATLANTIC HURRICANE SEASON... AT 11 AM AST...1500Z...THE CENTER OF HURRICANE EPSILON WAS LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE 33.7 NORTH... LONGITUDE 48.2 WEST OR ABOUT 1220 MILES...1965 KM... WEST OF THE AZORES. EPSILON IS MOVING TOWARD THE NORTHEAST NEAR 14 MPH...22 KM/HR...AND THIS GENERAL MOTION IS EXPECTED TO CONTINUE FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 75 MPH...120 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER GUSTS. LITTLE CHANGE IN STRENGTH IS EXPECTED TODAY... BUT GRADUAL WEAKENING IS FORECAST TO BEGIN LATER TONIGHT OR ON SATURDAY. HURRICANE FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 15 MILES... 28 KM... FROM THE CENTER...AND TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 115 MILES...185 KM. THE ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 987 MB...29.15 INCHES. REPEATING THE 11 AM AST POSITION...33.7 N... 48.2 W. MOVEMENT TOWARD...NORTHEAST NEAR 14 MPH. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS... 75 MPH. MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE... 987 MB. THE NEXT ADVISORY WILL BE ISSUED BY THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER AT 5 PM AST. FORECASTER STEWART Oh, joy!

WhiteDove, Although I don't recall it being taught as a formal doctrine, I do recall from the classes we ran and the classes I attended, the distinctly condescending tone toward people who did not, in fact, speak in tongues at the conclusion of Session 12. "She didn't manifest"....and then the elongated "OOOOHHHH" on the part of the others. (We don't know FOR SURE if she isn't a seed girl) The implication was that the person was somehow less of a human being than the rest of us who had received that "secret decoder ring" and had been given the "secret handshake." Such a person was treated with charity (so we thought), but was never really good enough. So, to my recollection, you are correct that it wasn't directly taught in the piffle class, it sure was strongly implied...but of course it's been a long, long time (thank the Lord) and my memory may be sort of faulty.

Wow, they moved the thread on me...LOL Belle, There are a few sites that I will give you that have a lot of these writings captured down. They make for very interesting reading. Early Christian Writings. Has a good compilation of writings of the apostles, writings from the leaders of the early Church, gnostic writings, and other apocryphal writings. Christian Classics Etheral Library. Run by Calvin College...has a huge collection of classic Christian writings that span the entire 2,000 years and medieval and modern writings. New Advent collection of Church Fathers. Another collection of writings from early Christianity. Also, possibly of interest, has documentation of the liturgies (religious ceremonies) that were used in the earliest forms of Christianity. The Internet Medieval Sourcebook. Has English translations of many of the documents that shape our life, including how we see Christianity (not just Catholicism, but Protestantism, as well) today. A couple of things to consider: I am not hardly trying to state that these documents, in of themselves, provide the Truth. But they are interesting if, for no other reason, they show how people who were contemporary to the author saw their world. This is interesting when reading scripture, as the interpretation of scripture by people who were around then is, in MANY cases, dramatically different than how modern speakers/ writers interpret the same words. These sites are in some ways duplicative, but not completely. Early Christian Writings has a larger collection of gnostic and other apocryphal writings than the other sites. CCEL has more devotional and general philosophical writings (such as Thomas Kempis' classic, Imitation of Christ, and a very nice Bullinger collection). New Advent has the the Summa and also has many of the early Christian Liturgies. Hope that helps give you some info that you can use as you broaden your readings!

We may see. Somehow I have a feeling that the 11/30 date may just tell us when we have "out of season" cyclones.

OOps