markomalley

Well, not meaning to defend TWI, but their Aramaic interlinear and concordance (that were developed by TWI) were groundbreaking. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I understand that they weren't schooled as researchers, but it is what it is. An interesting note from a site not that complimentary of TWI says: It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear. I'm sure the investigating authorities will also look seriously at that issue. The original Way translation was authorized by Paul Victor Wierwille, a man who openly denied the Deity of the Messiah, and authored the book "Jesus is not God". What James Trimm may not have realized is that the Way Research team did try to remove some of Wierwille's bias from their version, and according to Dr. John Juedes, were fairly successful. link If you take a look at this site: link, you will note an online Aramaic-lexicon and concordance. Please note the copyright. (btw, the link here is a "tinyurl" link, because the original will be edited out by this BBS' foul language editor. The original is (remove the spaces) http: // www.pes hitta.org/lexicon/. This site is sponsored by Paul Younan, who is a fairly widely recognized Aramaic scholar (and, btw, is a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, whose patriarchy is aligned with the Patriarch of Antioch. This church, btw, is in negotiations to restore full communion with the Vatican). He is no VPW apologist. But he still recognized the quality of the work done by the TWI Research Team in Aramaic. A slam against those folks is, imho, slamming some good people who tried to do the best they could under some pretty oppresive circumstances (at least as far as academic integrity is concerned). Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend TWI research (c'mon, me, the token Catholic defend TWI's position on something????) -- but they did do some good work in Aramaic. In fact, the Aramaic stuff is the only TWI material I have left. And I have no intention of getting rid of it any time soon.

Exactly my point. What started off as being something that was to be desired ended up as a perversion! Didn't say they did. I said they blew it. There is a difference.

I beg to differ. They blew the concept completely, totally, and undeniably. How? Twig was supposed to be a place where you were nourished...it became a place to endure boredom Twig was supposed to be a place where you were loved...it became a place to endure persecution Twig was supposed to be a place that fostered personal growth...it became a stifling place of micro - life - management Twig was supposed to be a place of healing...instead it became the den of wolves (no offense WW) waiting to prey on the weak of mind, will, or spirit At least according to the numbers and according to 95% of the people who have ever posted here. And, I dare say, according to your own witness. If it is so great, why aren't you an "innie"?

Exactly. One thing that's sort of odd, though, is that I don't see this particular legend listed on snopes or other urband legend debunking sites. It's floating around enough that I'd have thought it would have been listed already.

Well, if done right (not that TWI with the good-old Way Tree did it right), in fact, that would be a tremendous strength. If you go to church with a group of 1,000 to 15,000 other folks (think about how big some of these mega-churches are getting), there is no way that individual needs can be fully met. Small groups would, imho, be an important part of a pastoral ministry in those circumstances. While I agree that people participating in those groups would need to be very careful to avoid heterodoxy, I would think that the good would far outweigh the bad, particularly when those groups are part of a larger church organization. Just because TWI blew it with this concept doesn't mean that the concept was bad...it means that TWI was bad. (For those who read my posts, you'll note that I have pretty well consistently criticized the TWI theology more so than the practice: the reason for this is that I believe that the TWI theology was what enabled the abuses, not the way in which the group was organized. I still hold to that)

This one sounds actually a bit feasible: I don’t know whether or not this is a true story, but it was told to me as true! It seems there was a church that decided to have a mural painted in their nursery area. Now when you are thinking about Biblical scenes for church nurseries, everyone is going to naturally gravitate to one of two stories: Adam and Eve in the garden or Noah loading the ark. This is because both of these stories can be depicted with lots of colors and lots of animals. This particular church decided upon Adam and Eve. An artist was hired and she painted a beautiful scene with lush tropical plants, colorful and whimsical animals of every sort and Adam and Eve discretely covered right there in the middle of the garden. There was only one problem. Adam and Eve’s tummies were showing in the picture. Some people objected – not because of the bare midriffs, but because the artist placed a little dot – a belly button – on Adam and on Eve. These people argued that Adam and Eve would not have had belly buttons – they were created out of dust. They wouldn’t have had umbilical cords. Others in the church argued back – who cares? And anyway, if Adam and Eve were human just like we are, they would have had belly buttons. Neither side could let it go and it turned into a real church fight. Some people announced that if the belly buttons were not painted out – they would leave the church. Others announced that if the belly buttons were painted out – they would leave the church. Both sides became progressively abusive toward one another. The issue of the belly buttons became the sole issue in the church. Finally one group made good on their promise and left the church en masse to form another church. From the First Baptist Church of Pendleton, SC I've seen enough folks who were unable to say "it doesn't matter" to think that this story is quite probable, in fact.

Oak, what a concept! Freedom of speech. Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but I feel perfectly free to speak my un-PC views on both theology and politics around here. I know I p!ss a few people off, but they'll get over it (or they can just hit the ignore button on me, they're choice). Having said that, most people, although they don't agree with my POV, are pretty tolerant. Either questions are asked, POVs ignored, or whatever. Of course there are "the usual suspects" who love to chime in with a slam here or a slash there, but it honestly isn't too bad. I also post over on FR and the evangelicals there make careers out of Catholic-bashing (a couple even -- seriously -- highly approve of Jack Chick tracts). So this place isn't too bad, all in all. So what comes next? Freedom of thought?

I look forward to hearing your reviews, Ricky. On the research dept., I'd be interested to hear some more about it: what kind of projects they are working on, etc. Seriously. They have, in the past, done some tremendous work. Are you familiar with their Concordance to the Pes hitta Aramaic? (I don't know if it's sold or not anymore) -- the work is fairly widely known and is actually well respected, from what I gather. If they are able to do some honest work like that, I'd be interested in seeing it. Of course, if, otoh, all they do is rehash old stuff, then that's a completely different story.

Thanks. There were only 20 options, so I had to do some condensing that I wouldn't have preferred. Groucho, Works for me! Rascal, I wish more so-called Christians had your attitude!

Well, I took a poll, and the majority of people here currently state that they subscribe to at least some of VPW's teachings. Does that mean that the majority are Wierwillites, at least to a degree?

There is a difference between the two doctrines, as you know. Exactly. Sorry you feel that way. The above is an accurate representation of what western Christianity confesses in regard to the Blessed Trinity. But I am curious, though, to hear your opinion of the original Creed of Constantinople-Nicea versus the changes initially inserted by the Synod of Toledo in 589? Do you think that reverting to the original Creed would fundamentally change western pneumatology?

Thanks, folks, for your answers. So it appears that there are a wide variety of religious beliefs going on here. I was curious how many people still subscribed to TWI-like beliefs: apparently 26 still subscribe to the Son of God but not God belief for Christ. Only 10 have tossed the whole thing. apprently 9 still subscribe to TWI beliefs on spiritual manifestations. and 16 still subscribe to the soul-sleep belief of TWI. And only 9 do the twig or twig-like thing. Thanks! (Now back to the Wierwillite thread)

Ammo, First, welcome to gsc. I've been where you are before. Hopefully the following will help: **CAVEAT. I AM NOT TRYING TO RECRUIT YOU TO GO INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. JUST WANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL ADVICE** One question to ask yourself...why do you want to find a church? If you've just had a thought 'Gee, I'd really like to find a church to go to,' without answering that underlying question, then you may never, ever be satisfied... So let's look at some of the possible answers: You want a nice group of people to associate with in a relatively 'clean' environment. You want to worship God in a valid fashion. You want to get involved in the social ministries of some church and help the community. You want to have a forum within which you'll be able learn and/or teach the Bible. You have kids and want those kids to have a nice group of kids that have some kind of moral structure. etc. etc. etc. Any of those are valid areas of concern...and you may have one or more of them or may have a reason I haven't listed at all. First, there are some theological issues that you will have to either deal with or will have to have to ignore. There are a few marks of Christianity that are out there that the vast, vast majority of groups believe. The trinity Water baptism admittedly, there are differences whether the baptism is considered a sacrament or an affirmation/ordinance, but baptism is done one way or the other The destination of the soul after death Your choices are extremely limited if you choose neither to subscribe to, or are able to ignore those three basic marks (particularly the Trinity): Jehovah's Witness Oneness Pentacostal (practice water baptism, in Jesus name only) Unitarian-Universalist (not Christian, but a group of nice, accepting people_ Christian Scientist And a few others... And so, you can either ignore it or you can find one of these churches that agree with those perculiarities that distinguished TWI, or you will have to deal with those issues. (Or just stay away) If you are simply looking for a church as a social exercise, there are a huge number of groups out there that provide that kind of environment. A lot of them out there mostly preach "positive thinking," "God loves you," "do good by others," and so on and really don't get into any kind of deep theology. There are a lot of good folks in those churches. And as long as you keep the TWI-unique beliefs to yourself, you're not going to run into issues with them. If you are looking for study/worship experiences or if you have kids that you want to get some religious formation, you'll have to deal with the theological issues. On that subject: I was where you are now about 8 years ago. I wanted to get back into church after being gone from TWI for years, being disgusted by the offshoots I'd seen, and so on. Maybe a nice Methodist, Lutheran, or UCC church. No interest in a fundamentalist church or a Pentacostal type church, of course (not after TWI). However, I'd allowed TWI to be able to knock enough holes in all of the issues I identified above and had 'learned' the TWI theology so well that it was tough to consider that they might be wrong. Repeatedly in the years after leaving TWI, I'd go through the 'proofs' that were shown in books like ADAN, JCNG, etc. and saw that, using Wierwille's methodology, he built his case. Something happened about 8 years ago, though, and I decided to re-look at the key 'marks' of TWI (JCNG, ADAN, RHSN, PFAL, etc.) through a different prism: I decided to see if I could prove the traditional orthodoxy that these TWI 'marks' displaced could be proven. I reasoned with myself that those orthodox 'marks' had been in place for centuries before Wierwille. Many heroes celebrated in twi (Luther, Bullinger, etc) were always celebrated with the caveat, 'except they believed in the Trinity...,' 'they were great, but fear kept them from acknowledging that JC was not God,' etc....Well, I let myself consider the fact that maybe these great men were correct and VPW was wrong...(dangerous thought, I know). So, I decided to examine those doctrines through the prism of themselves. In other words, not can the doctrines be disproven by examining isolated scriptures, but can the doctrines be substantiated in scripture...and can the isolated verses be understood in light of these doctrines? And I found out that they could. But, as with everything, YMMV (your mileage may vary). The point is that you can, if you're willing, come up with an understanding that they (regular churches) could actually be right! Now as to what type of church. That is as much a matter of style as anything. I personally prefer the beauty of a nice liturgical service. And, in fact, even though I am Catholic, the Latin Rite liturgy is not my preference: I actually prefer the beauty of the Eastern churches. There is a tremendous amount of symbolism in the services that, if you understand the significance of the symbols, makes for a tremendously rich worship experience. However, I fully acknowledge that some people don't feel comfortable with the liturgical worship style. Once again, it's something that (imho) for a person in your position, is a matter of comfort. The only advice I'd give is to: understand the nature of the liturgy used -- there are plenty of resources on the web to explain any liturgy used in by any church in this country. If not a liturgical service, try to understand the order of how they worship. Whether liturgical or not, once you understand what is going on, you need to feel comfortable with it. All should be 'decent and in order' (IMHO) Anyway, hope this helps! (btw, if you want something that comes close to resembling the 'first century church,' I'd suggest finding either a Chaldean church, or if one of those is not near where you live, a Maronite or Melkite church. The Chaldeans are from Mesopotamia (Aramaic), the Maronites (Syriac) and Melkites (Greek) are both from Antioch. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it is very interesting to see how their liturgies operate)

Tomorrow is Ash Wednesday, the beginning of the season of Lent. I hope you all are who choose to do so are able to gain some spiritual growth through the season....

We've established this already, Oldies. So what about the points I addressed above? (In this post) Or if you don't care to address the points I made, you could address how and where the author of the article cited in the original post are wrong. I'm not trying to dog you, Oldies, I'm really not. But I'd at least like you (or for that matter anybody) to provide a scripture-based refutation of either what the author wrote or the points I made (my position is not the same as the author's position, by the way). You say you don't believe something. Show where the author is wrong, then. Please. The thread has now been moved down to "Doctrinal", so it is appropriate to discuss that stuff here.

Something that you could do with that skill set is professional services -- in other words, consulting. Particularly if you live near a medium/large metropolitan area. Those services could include helping businesses with their web presence, security audits, IT system integration, and so on. It might involve a little bit of time away from home, but most of the work can be done on the computer and/or on the phone in your home office, establishing contacts with vendors and potential customers. If you are doing it by yourself or with one or two others, you will be able to get a lot of assistance from the Small Business Administration (including financial assistance if you can write a decent proposal and have a good business case). The nice parts about that kind of business are as follows: - Your web server becomes tax deductable as a business expense - Your bandwidth becomes tax deductable - Your home office becomes tax deductable (not the whole home, but the office) - Your phones become deductable - Your car becomes partially deductable - If you incorporate, you can structure your income so that almost none of it is taxable for income or FICA - etc., etc. Consulting is always in some kind of demand...depending on your imagination (btw, I have a teaming partner who is an 8a...he works from his house in SC and flies up to DC as required for meetings, but that is only about once every 3-4 months...so it is not unrealistic to consider that)

So, uh, Oldies, no comments?

Anti-mullah rap is new hit in Iran Tehran, Iran, Feb. 28 – Rap music is rapidly becoming a popular in Iran and a new CD which mocks the Islamic Republic’s ruling ayatollahs is taking the country by storm. The latest in the line of music making fun of Iran’s top clerics is an album made by a group called Dalu. The artists have taken popular rap beats and replaced the lyrics with their own versions, blasting the ayatollahs iron rule, incompetence in economic affairs, and even their unfashionable attire. Iranian youths, who make up over 70 percent of the total population, have taken a liking to rap music, and the combo of hip beats and anti-mullah lyrics have been turning into a huge hit in Iran’s urban areas. (remainder snipped) What next?? Break-dancing in a burkha? To the mod: this may actually belong in the "silly" forum, I don't know...

There's No Pulpit Like Home Some Evangelicals are abandoning megachurches for minichurches--based in their own living rooms By RITA HEALY, DAVID VAN BIEMA On a Sunday at their modest, gray ranch house in the Denver suburb of Englewood, Tim and Jeanine Pynes gather with four other Christians for an evening of fellowship, food and faith. Jeanine's spicy rigatoni precedes a yogurt-and-wafer confection by Ann Moore, none of the food violating the group's solemn commitment to Weight Watchers. The participants, who have pooled resources for baby sitting, discuss a planned missionary trip and sing along with a CD by the Christian crossover group Sixpence None the Richer. One of the lyrics, presumably written in Jesus' voice, runs, "I'm here, I'm closer than your breath/ I've conquered even death." That leads to earnest discussion of a friend's suicide, which flows into an exercise in which each participant brings something to the table--a personal issue, a faith question--and the group offers talk and prayer. Its members read from the New Testament's Epistle to the Hebrews, observe a mindful silence and share a hymn. The meeting could be a sidebar gathering of almost any church in the country but for a ceramic vessel of red wine on the dinner table--offered in communion. Because the dinner, it turns out, is no mere Bible study, 12-step meeting or other pendant to Sunday service at a Denver megachurch. It is the service. There is no pastor, choir or sermon--just six believers and Jesus among them, closer than their breath. Or so thinks Jeanine, who two years ago abandoned a large congregation for the burgeoning movement known in evangelical circles as "house churching," "home churching" or "simple church." The week she left, she says, "I cried every day." But the home service flourished, grew to 40 people and then divided into five smaller groups. One participant at the Pyneses' house, a retired pastor named John White, also attends a conventional church, where he gives classes on how to found, or plant, the house variety. "Church," he says, "is not just about a meeting." Jeanine is a passionate convert: "I'd never go back to a traditional church. I love what we're doing." Since the 1990s, the ascendant mode of conservative American faith has been the megachurch. It gathers thousands, or even tens of thousands, for entertaining if sometimes undemanding services amid family-friendly amenities. It is made possible by hundreds of smaller "cell groups" that meet off-nights and provide a humanly scaled framework for scriptural exploration, spiritual mentoring and emotional support. Now, however, some experts look at groups like Jeanine Pynes'--spreading in parts of Colorado, Southern California, Texas and probably elsewhere--and muse, What if the cell groups decided to lose the mother church? (snip) House churches claim the oldest organizational pedigree in Christianity: the book of Acts records that after Jesus' death, his Apostles gathered not at the temple but in an "upper room." House churching has always prospered where resources were scarce or Christianity officially discouraged. In the U.S. its last previous bloom was rooted in the bohemian ethos of the California-bred Jesus People movement of the 1970s. Many of those groups were eventually reabsorbed by larger congregations, and the remnants tend to take a hard line. Frank Viola, a 20-year veteran Florida house churcher and author of Rethinking the Wineskin and other manuals, talks fondly of pilgrims who doctrinairely abjure pastors, sermons or a physical plant; feel that the "modern institutional church does not reflect the early church"; and "don't believe you are going to see the fullness of Jesus Christ expressed just sitting in a pew listening to one other member of the body of Christ talking for 45 minutes while everyone else is passive." More recent arrangements can seem more ad hoc. Tim and Susie Grade moved to Denver a year ago. They had attended cell groups subsidiary to Sunday services but were delighted to learn that their new neighbors Tim and Michelle Fox longed for a house church like the ones they had seen overseas. Now they and seven other twenty- and thirtysomethings mix a fairly formal weekly communion with a laid-back laying on of hands, semiconfessional "sharing" and a guitar sing-along. Says Tim: "We have some people who come from regular churches, and were a little disenfranchised. And people who joined because of friendships, and people who are kind of hurting, kind of searching. My age group and younger are seeking spiritual things that they have not found elsewhere." Critics fret that small, pastorless groups can become doctrinally or even socially unmoored. Thom Rainer, a Southern Baptist who has written extensively on church growth, says, "I have no problem with where a church meets, [but] I do think that there are some house churches that, in their desire to move in different directions, have perhaps moved from biblical accountability." In extreme circumstances home churches dominated by magnetic but unorthodox leaders can shade over the line into cults. Yet the flexibility of simple churches is a huge plus. They can accommodate the demands of a multi-job worker, convene around the bedside of an ailing member and undertake big initiatives with dispatch, as in the case of a group in the Northwest that reportedly yearned to do social outreach but found that every member had heavy credit-card debt. An austerity campaign yielded a balance with which to help the true poor. (snip) Evangelical boosters find revival everywhere. Barna says he sees house churching and practices like home schooling and workplace ministries as part of a "seminal transition that may be akin to a third spiritual awakening in the U.S." Jeffrey Mahan, academic vice president of Denver's liberal and institutionally oriented Iliff School of Theology, doesn't go that far, but he does think the trend is significant. American participation in formal church has risen and fallen throughout history, he notes, and after a prolonged post--World War II upswell, big-building Christianity may be exhaling again in favor of informal arrangements. If so, he suggests, "I don't think the denominations need be anxious. They don't have a franchise on religion. The challenge is for people to talk about what constitutes a full and adequate religious life, to be the church together, not in a denominational sense, but in the broadest sense." Or as Jesus put it, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I." This reminds me of the small-church-group movement that we're seeing in my church, but without the anchor back to the Church. It also reminds me on the surface of TWI, but not when one looks at it: as there does not appear to be the classes, the money-grubbing, or the hierarchy. But it might be something for folk who can't find a home elsewhere...

I actually sort of have a little pity on folks like that (not much, but some). I am one to think that they, at least on some level, actually believed the lies they were telling. As I said earlier, it's a big "if" I do not have a bunch of personal hurt from the situation. Sure, I wasted ABS money on them rather than on something useful. Sure, I wasted God only knows how much time. Sure, it took me years afterwards to clear the garbage out of my head. But, on the other hand, unlike some, my wife was not a concubine for him. My daughter was not forced to have an abortion due to his direction. I wasn't personally hurt by him. So in regards to the hate that prevents forgiveness...not really an issue with me. On a personal level, I'm beyond it. And I guess that's really the definition of forgiveness anyway. To send it away. So why do you see me post on these TWI threads at all? Because even though I don't personally have a dog in the fight, I can see the theological underpinnings that enabled all of the abuses that did occur. And I feel compelled to identify with them. I want to commiserate with those who were hurt in the name of God in order to cooperate with their healing. And I want to help those who are still in to realize how that name has been abused to help cooperate in getting relief for them. And finally to help warn those who may, for some ungodly reason, consider subscribing to that group and its dangerous beliefs.

Bliss, You have a great point. I should have made sure that all the questions had "I don't know" as an answer. But, alas, I cannot go back and edit the poll. JustLoafing, I hope you can find something that will work for you and your life.

There would be a few more questions, but I guess these ones hit the big points...thanks for your inputs.

That, Sir, simply is not true. There are many, many people on this board who recognize those teachings of his that they believe are true. The bulk of them give credit from whom they learned those lessons (even if many of them accuse him of plagerizing, they still admit that they learned the lessons from VPW). A person could still subscribe to ALL the lessons learned from VPW and still not be a Wierwillite. A Wierwillite gets agitated if Wierwille's personal failures are attacked (although he may acknowledge those personal failures, it causes discomfort to think about it) A Wierwillite gets agitated if Wierwille's plagerism is brought up (although he may acknowledge that plagerism, it causes discomfort to think about it) A Wierwillite will cite Wierwille as an authoritative source as part of his logic A Wierwillite feels discomfort when Wierwille or his teachings are discussed critically But, is somebody who merely recognizes the truth in the teachings of VPW (some or even all) a Wierwillite? Not at all...

Problem is, he could also really preach a fabulous message, when he got it wrong. :(

What is a Wierwillite?...Let me put it to you this way... Allah u Akbar, Allah u Akbar Ash-hadu al-la Ilaha ill Allah - Ash-hadu al-la Ilaha ill Allah Ash-hadu anna Wierwilledan Rasulullaah Ash-hadu anna Wierwilledan Rasulullaah