markomalley

Hillarious!!!!! Better even than the fire truck joke!

WW, I seem to recall re-searching being the definition supplied for research from my involvement during the '80s. As in "genuine research means re-searching the work already laid out for us by 'Dr' Wierwille." I don't know if that's a figment of my flawed memory, but your post brought that memory back to light. If true, that would tend to explain the closed-mindedness of so many of VP's apologists (not naming any names, but thinking about the 280-page thread on PFAL that started up about a month ago down in the basement).

Oak/Pond: Perhaps it would do CK some good if he actually looked at all of John 10. Particularly verse 8.

Allan, look... I'm just telling you what the symbology means within the Catholic Church. This is also not unique. You will note that there are five pieces of incense placed in an Easter Candle (if you were to go to your local cathedral's Easter Vigil on the evening prior to Easter, you'd see this). Same symbology: one per wound. Now if you'd like to assign some other meaning to the symbology, please feel free to do so at your convenience. Just don't assign that definition to the Catholic Church.

Well, ladies, I guess that means that we won't be chatting...

Apparently, this practice is somewhat accepted elsewhere in the world: Child Bride Posted by Kevin Sites on Mon, Mar 20 2006, 4:55 PM ET Married at the age of four, an Afghan girl was subjected to years of beatings and torture, finally escaping to discover that within all the world's cruelty, there is also some kindness. KABUL, Afghanistan - Eleven-year old Gulsoma lay in a heap on the ground in front of her father-in-law. He told her that if she didn't find a missing watch by the next morning he would kill her. He almost had already. Enraged about the missing watch, Gulsoma's father-in-law had beaten her repeatedly with a stick. She was bleeding from wounds all over her body and her right arm and right foot had been broken. She knew at that moment that if she didn't get away, he would make good on his promise to kill her. * * * When I meet her at the Ministry of Women's Affairs I'm surprised that the little girl, now 12, is the same one that had endured such horrible suffering. She is wearing a red baseball cap and an orange scarf. She has beautiful brown eyes and a full and animated smile. She takes one of my hands in both of hers and greets me warmly, without any hint of shyness. "She looks healthy," says Haroon, my friend and translator. I nod. But she looks older than her years, we both agree. In orphanages — first in Kandahar, then in Kabul — she has had a year to recover from a lifetime's worth of unimaginable imprisonment, deprivation and torture. In one of the ministry's offices she sits in a straight-backed wooden chair and tells us the story of her life so far. She is stoic for the most part, pausing only a few times to wipe her eyes and nose with her scarf. Her story begins in the village of Mullah Allam Akhound, near Kandahar. "When I was three years old my father died, and after a year my mother married again, but her second husband didn't want me," says Gulsoma. "So my mother gave me away in a promise of marriage to our neighbor's oldest son, who was thirty." "They had a ceremony in which I was placed on a horse [which is traditional in Afghanistan] and given to the man." Because she was still a child, the marriage was not expected to be sexually consummated. But within a year, Gulsoma learned that so much else would be required of her that she would become a virtual slave in the household. At the age of five, she was forced to take care of not only her "husband" but also his parents and all 12 of their other children as well. Though nearly the entire family participated in the abuse, her father-in-law, she says, was the cruelest. "My father-in-law asked me to do everything — laundry, the household chores — and the only time I was able to sleep in the house was when they had guests over," she says. "Other than that I would have to sleep outside on a piece of carpet without even any blankets. In the summer it was okay. But in the winter a neighbor would come over and give me a blanket, and sometimes some food." When she couldn't keep up with the workload, Gulsoma says, she was beaten constantly. Gulsoma's scars "They beat me with electric wires," she says, "mostly on the legs. My father-in-law told his other children to do it that way so the injuries would be hidden. He said to them, 'break her bones, but don't hit her on the face.'" There were even times when the family's abuse of Gulsoma transcended the bounds of the most wanton, sadistic cruelty, as on the occasions when they used her as a human tabletop, forcing her to lie on her stomach then cutting their food on her bare back. (snip) But it wasn't for lack of trying. Gulsoma said when her father-in-law finally let her out of the shed, he bound her hands behind her back and beat her unconscious. She says he revived her by pouring a tea thermos filling with scalding water over her head and her back. "It was so painful," she says, dabbing her eyes with her scarf and sniffling for a moment. "I was crying and screaming the entire time." Five days later, she says, her father in law gave her a vicious beating when his daughter's wristwatch went missing. "He thought I stole it," she says, "and he beat me all over my body with his stick. He broke my arm and my foot. He said if I didn't find it by the next day, he would kill me." (snip) The toll of torture Gulsoma was then brought to a Kabul orphanage, where she lives today. She takes off her baseball cap and shows us a bald spot, almost like a medieval monk's tonsure, on the crown of her head where she was scalded. She then turns her back and raises her shirt to reveal a sad map of scar tissue and keloids from cuts, bruises and the boiling water. Haroon and I look at each other with disbelief. Her life's tragic story is etched upon her back. Yet she continues to smile. She doesn't ask for pity. She seems more concerned about us as she reads the shock on our faces. "I feel better now," she says. "I have friends at the orphanage. But every night I'm still afraid the family will come here and pick me up." Gulsoma also says that when the sun goes down, she sometimes begins to shiver involuntarily — a reaction to the seven years of sleeping outdoors, sometimes in the bitter cold of the desert night. She says she believes there are other girls like her in Kandahar, maybe elsewhere in Afghanistan, and that she wants to study human rights and one day go back to help them. As we walk outside to take some pictures, I ask her if, after all she's been through, she thinks it will be harder to trust, to believe that there are actually good people in the world. "No," she says, quickly. "I didn't expect anyone would help me but God. I was really surprised that there were also nice people: the neighbor, the rickshaw driver, the police," she says. "I pray for those who helped release me." All too common, unfortunately..."married" at Age 4...then the abuse begins...

I agree with you in regards to once you're actually IN the room being able to see who else has access. I think the feature set that transfers your BBS name to the chat room is good, so you can't pretend to be somebody else. But I think it is different when people who are not in the chat room can see who IS in the chat room. I personally would, if I could, simply have an indicator on the main page that says "3 people are in FlashChat" or something along those lines. Then, once you are IN the chat room, it would show the handles of the other people who are already in there. But, as I've said before, I'm not the most prolific chatroom user around here...it's been over a year since I've been in chat...I'm just voicing something that others may not have considered. After all, Belle, you are always logged in "invisible," as well. So do you like losing that invisibility? When you are in FlashChat, anybody can see, from the publically accessible main page, that you are online at the particular time. OTOH, if you don't care about that, then why do you log in using "invisible" mode?

Already posted in 'tacks...

One thing to consider, though, Rascal, is that his theology was messed up (see jerry's pfal errors study for some examples). This gave a doctrinal basis to allow the horrible abuses that he personally and directly was responsible for and the abuses he encouraged, condoned, and/or ignored. It also explains why the abuses under successive regimes appeared worse than under his.

Besides, it simply says nothing about "the renewed mind"...so renewed mind quotes are not applicable here. It is simply agape..."1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence" (per Strong's).

WW/David, There are, in fact, five crosses engraved on an altar. But, CK is totally ignorant of the meaning of the symbology. The symbology represents the five wounds of Christ. (Hands - 2, Feet - 2, Side - 1). We had this discussion a while ago down in the doctrinal basement. You can review a post where I explain fully the picture that Bullinger misused and the significance of the crosses in this post in the Misquoting Jesus thread.

Allan, I don't know what they are teaching the kids nowadays on the subject. I know in my daughter's religion class, it has been brought up, but don't recall how much and to what degree. I'll have her bring her religion textbook home and will scan it and get an answer to you. Of course, that will apply to the seventh grade in one school. Having said that, they are in confirmation class this year and next year...I know they have to go through the Catechism completely during the next two years. So the references I gave you will be applicable for at least those two years of education. As to adult education...the subject is covered by classes, at least in my diocese. But keep in mind that, unlike other groups, classes are not mandatory. Keep in mind that my statement, Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. is not the same as ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! There are about 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world in somewhere nearing 500,000 individual parishes. I can't speak to what they are currently teaching in each and every parish. I will say that a cursory look, attendence at a couple of Masses in one parish, etc., won't really get you a good view of the overall situation. Allow me to expound a bit: - The level of required participation in the Catholic Church is not all that high. You're supposed to be baptized, go to Mass each week, go to Confession once a year...and that's the minimum. If you want to receive Communion, you are supposed to have some basic (2nd grade level) religious education. If you want to receive Confirmation, you have to have some more advanced (8th grade level) religious education. - 75-80% of all Catholics never, in all reality, take the time to learn more than that. That's what I'm talking about with the level of Catechesis. But that's not all that's offered... - There is continuing religious education offered for kids up through high school and, if they attend a Catholic institution, into the college level. - There is continuing religious education offered for adults that is taught at the college level. Usually the costs are such as to pay the teacher's salary and the cost of the books. - There are college majors in various 'relgious' type subjects, pastoral ministry, theology, canon law, spiritual counselling, etc. - Every parish that I've been involved in have study groups for adults -- taught at various levels -- that cover scripture, prayer, and other theological studies - Every parish that I've been involved in has speakers come in to hold seminars, retreats, etc. The subject of spiritual warfare is offered in most of the adult levels that I've spoken about. But the key thing is that most parishoners don't take advantage of these things nearly as much as I think they should. There are some who never go beyond 1st communion training. There are many more who never go beyond confirmation. It's not mandatory. You won't mostly hear about those things in homilies, because the purpose of the homily is to expound in a brief application-level teaching on the readings for the Mass that day. The homily is normally no more than 15 minutes...at maximum. Why so short? Because the Mass is worship, not teaching. And a homily is an exhortation much more so than a lesson. But don't say that the stuff isn't taught...it is. Now are people motivated to learn? Is it being taught uniformly well? Is it being taught in an orthodox fashion or a heterodox one? Those would be good questions and, more importantly, an answer that might be completely accurate in Aus/NZ may not be accurate here. An answer that might be accurate for the Archdiocese of Washington may not be accurate for the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. But it isn't easy to give a uniform answer that is true everywhere. The only thing that I can say that is universally true is that it is within the teachings of the Church.

Sure...if you look, you'll see I'm in "invisible" mode on the forums. If I enter Flashchat, I remove my invisibility to the general public. (Yes, it's common sense that I wouldn't be invisible to other participants in the room) Since I prefer staying invisible more than engaging in chat, I'll simply avoid chat...as long as the 'chatroom participant' listing is broadcast on the main board. It was a smarta$$ comment on my part...don't do anything on my account...

Heard this song this morning on TV. Loved it! See them driving around the Capitol Beltway all the time...and am extremely careful to give them wide berth as they: a) talk on their cell phones b) apply their makeup c) put on pantyhose (sometimes all at the same time! ;) )

Trading Spaces

I personally always thought Fear Factor had more socially redeeming value than American Idol. OTOH, I thought that the Jerry Springer Show was an accurate indicator of the collective mental health of American society at large.

I understand and that's the point.

If you want the one from where they get the Mass readings, you will want to get the New American Bible. If you prefer the classic sounds of the older English, get a Douay-Rheims However, my personal favorite for general purpose reading is the Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition (includes the sections that were hacked out by Luther & company during the western schism)

Answers. First, for context, I'd please ask you to read my bio here. Did anyone try to control you? Not directly, but subtlely...that would/ would not be "best" to do x, y, z. I never was in some sort of a position to be controlled. If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they? n/a Were you scared at any point and why? Not really, but when I decided it was time to exit, I kept my exit plans strictly to myself...and disappeared. What drew you to this group? I saw a tremendous amount of love and dedication, along with what I personally experienced, a lack of judgementalism, that I perceived was sorely lacking in the mainstream groups at the time. Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will? I "brainwashed" myself. When I first got turned on by this group, I was so enamoured by it that I devoted almost all my waking hours to the mastery of its theology and customs. I truly believed that what they were presenting was the actual truth of the matter and so pursued it full time. So, as a result, I reoriented my own thinking so that it would be in sync with this group completely. Note: part of this group's teachings involved a practice called "renewing the mind." This involved blocking all thoughts out of one's mind that were not in accordance with the teachings of this group. Much of the "self-brainwashing" involved an intense effort to "renew my mind" to think in accord with the way I should think. Also please note that I, to this day, believe that there is some value to be gotten from the practice of controlling one's own thinking, my primary argument these days is with what one was to "renew one's mind" to, along with the excess to which that could be taken. What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group? There were a number of them that were in existence. The sexual mores within some of the more initiated of this group were dramatically at odds with those that would conventionally be associated with Christian thought. Essentially, the belief was that "free sex" was not at odds with Christian morality, as long as you were "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. (For a young single guy who was deemed to be fairly "spiritually mature," it was a rather enjoyable abberation :D ) As you should be able to discover, there was a school of thought that would be comofortable with some elements of the "Christian Identity" movement of the 70s-90s, the "Patriot" movement, and other far right-wing movements. A fairly good compendium of those threads could be found at the TWI & Holocaust Teachings thread, recently compiled by Belle. There were many teachings that I became familiar with over time that were restricted to the more intitiated (classes such as Christian Family & Sex, Dealing With the Adversary, and the Advanced Class come to mind). From what I gather, many more of these teachings were only made known to those in the Way Corps leadership training. What beliefs did/do they follow? THeir beliefs were a combination of the Word/Faith, Pentacostal, Identity, Jehovah's Witness/Arian, and other Protestant theologies. What did you think was really false about the group? See above. (I follow a personal theology that would be best characterized as an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox theology, although I attend a Latin church) Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things? Not from my personal experience, but others have vastly different experiences than I, particularly those who were involved with the group in the 90s. Were there money issues? From my personal experience, a person wase required to "abundantly share" -- rated at 15% or more of gross (pre-tax) income. In order to take certain classes, one would have to be able to document that he regularly "abundantly shared." The sharing was audited prior to being accepted for classes, but the amount of the sharing was not. There are others, again who were involved in the 90s for the most part, who stated that their incomes were monitored to ensure that the amount shared met or exceeded this 15% floor. Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used? The Way Tree (an Oak tree as I recall) and the Dove. hat is PFAL? "Power for Abundant Living." A series of three classes that formed the doctrinal initiation of all new members. The foundational, intermediate, and advanced classes. There were also a number of collateral classes that one was allowed to attend after completing the intermediate class. What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)? "Twig" was the trade name for a home fellowship. Its use was related to the "Way Tree". A twig coordinator was the person who was charged with being the pastor for the home fellowship (which could be anything from 3 to 20+ people...usually, they split up the twigs when the numbers regularly exceeded 20...again, in my experience). Please keep in mind that my experiences were somewhat limited compared to others. But, if you are gathering broad-based information, I hope that they provide you a good data point. Again, I'd love to see the paper when you're done with it!

FWIW, it being "fixed" keeps me from participating in the chatroom at all.

I'll be happy to answer when time permits, but in the meantime please say hello to your mother and pass on she is loved and missed around here!!!!!

Welcome! 1. Why don't you ask some specific questions (one question per thread)?...I'm sure you'll get a whole host of answers. 2. After you've done enough research to develop a thesis statement, why don't you post it? ... I'm certain that there will be a lot of folks here who would be happy to help you generate some supports for it. 3. After you're done with your paper, if you're interested, I'm sure that the admins here would be thrilled to publish it on this site. Speaking for myself, I'd be very interested in reading it once you're done.

Why would they 'pray about it' if they didn't 'TEACH it'? Rather than engage in a p1ssing contest, I will refer you to the following sections from the Catechism: paragraphs 385-421, which describes the fall of man. paragraphs 538-540, which talk about Jesus' temptations in the desert paragraphs 632-637, which talk about Christ's descent into Hades paragraph 856, which explains some of the functions of the missionary paragraph 1237, which talks about the baptismal exorcisms paragraph 1673, which explains a little bit on exorcism paragraphs 2110-2128, which talk about idolatry and other violations of the first commandment. paragraphs 2482-2487, which talk about lying paragraphs 2850-2854, which teach on the section of the Lord's Prayer that says "deliver us from Evil." That's one reference. There are whole volumes written on the subject. So your statement, One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind., is in error. Again, is it a subject that is spoken about in every homily? Hardly. The reason being is that most of the 'devilish' acts that happen are the effects of the free will of man, not due to (as some teach) the direct influence of 'demons'/'devil spirits.' And man is what needs reforming...through man's free will...therefore, most 'preaching' done talks to the 'reforming' of man. To say it's not in the 'teaching of the Church' is inaccurate. Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. But it most definitely is a teaching of the Church...

One other thing too: your statistic (the one I requested) only talked about the percentage of abusers who were abused themselves. I wonder what the percentage would be of those who have some other sexual or social issues that plague them throughout their adult lives (and could result in a major impact on children they raise)?

Actually, those are some rather outlandish statistics...and, yes, they probably are somewhat underreported. Think about it: those 26 boys that turned into abusers, had they not been involved with that study, would have abused an average of 117 children each -- resulting in 3,042 abused children at their hands. If 11.6% (the statistic your study used) turned into abusers themselves, that would result in a new generation of 353 abusers. If they abused an average of 117 children, that would result in 41,301 children abused by generation 2. If 11.6% of those turned into abusers, that would be 4,793 new abusers for generation 3. Resulting in 560,882 new victims ... generating 65,102 new abusers for generation 4...and so on and so forth. And, as your study notes: the majority of cases are never reported...