markomalley

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey I resemble that remark!

They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring worlds without end. Interesting......that would be good positive motivation for one to keep his nose clean while here then... I do appreciate all the answers to the questions, Maureen. I'd been curious about those things for a while (just not curious enough to dig through all the writings or to expose myself to asking the questions directly in a F2F environment) As I said, facts are the best way to diffuse incorrect assumptions.

OK, Maureen, let me see if I grasp the divinity concept of LDS then: - God (the Father) has a flesh and blood body. God (the Father) created all of what we know as heaven and earth. - Jesus is what was identified as "God" in the Old Testament. At the direction of the Father, he created the world. He also, from the beginning had a flesh and blood body (did I hit that one correctly?). He suffered, died, and was buried. God (the Father) raised him from the dead. - The Holy Ghost is not a "person" but a force, a property of the Father that He imparts within baptized persons. A couple of questions: - Was Jesus eternal, or was he a created being, in LDS theology? - Is Jesus regarded as a god or a demigod? - You said he came to earth as a human being. Was he born? If so, how was he conceived? Did he go through the normal maternity process or something else? Would Mary have been considered his mother or just a foster mother? When he was on earth, did he possess all the faculties that he did when he was identified as the God of the Old Testament? I think your explanation of the last things make sort of sense without questions, but there are a couple of things that I'd heard, that I'd appreciate verification of: 1) I remember reading someplace that LDS theology taught that Lucifer was originally a similar being to Jesus prior to a rebellion. I don't remember exactly what it was, but is there something along those lines in LDS teaching? 2) I also seem to remember something that people who are in the celestial kingdom gain some similar sort of properties as Jesus. Again, the details are foggy. But is there some teaching along those lines? Again, I hope you'll pardon all the dumb and possibly repetitive questions, but I do sincerely appreciate hearing these things from somebody who is in a position to know.

Again, this is interesting. First time I heard of garments compared to a scapular... So, I understand that you can't participate in any of the sacred ordinances without being a member in good standing (which is my interpretation of the temple recommend), but you can't even witness them? The next logical question would be, when you first got yours, were there any suprises in the ceremonies? Did you have access to descriptions of what went on or was that reserved also (sort of like freemason initiation rites?)? And, regarding the tithe, that seems like a goodly way of doing it. BTW, pre-tax, post-tax, or your conscience?

Thanks. Look forward to reading more. I have found that facts are always a good defense against unfounded and uninformed attacks.

There are six blondestar episodes...originally made as a radio parody. They can be found here: http://www.smartelic.com/

This is primarily directed toward Maureen. I don't know if you'd be interested, but perhaps it might be nice to do a quick primer on the LDS belief system. I, frankly, don't know that much about it and would be interested to hear what the key tenants are. (From a comparative religion standpoint, not as a potential catechumen) Maybe that would help stop the derailing of other threads into debates on LDS theology. Just a thought (maybe pollyanish, maybe not) On edit, A few quick questions that I'd appreciate hearing about: - Temple recommends. What are they? How do you get them? Are they important? - Missionaries...is that a mandatory, strongly encouraged, or optional thing? - Garments. What's up with that? What's the theological basis? - Tithing. Mandatory/optional/recommended? Is it monitored? - What's the order of precedence with the scriptures... Bible? Book of Mormon? Doctrine and Covenants? - Please explain the LDS view of the trinity. Who is the Father? Who is Jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit? - Baptisms for the dead. Again, what's the theology? - Last things. What happens to good people when they die? Bad people? Good people who just aren't LDS? Good people who aren't Christian? Anyway, I ask because of curiosity and would be interested to hear...

No, the 2% were those who had allegations that were deemed credible. (1800 out of about 110,000 clerics). The vast majority of allegations came forward decades after the abuse occurred. (The vast majority of the abuse occurred in the 60s and 70s. The vast majority of allegations came forward after the scandal made the news with a couple of high profile cases in 2000). Out of those had credible accusations, about 1/4 of the accused were either dead or retired. Another 1/4 were 'laicized.' Another 1/4 were suspended -- still clerics, but unable to exercise any ministry. Another 1/4 were sent for treatment (up through the 80s, it was believed that a person could undergo therapy for this and be cured). Those that had treatment were normally sent to another parish. Only a few of them got away totally scot free. For those who did get away with it and those who enabled them...I agree fully with any disparaging remarks that anybody cares to give them. Out of that 2%, less than 150 of them dealt with clerics that were "serial abusers." (That's like a net of 0.1%). I am not making an excuse for those who were serial abusers or those who enabled them, but I think it's important to keep it in perspective. Yes, priests boogering boys has become a standing joke. But unfortunately the story was so juicy that it became like sharks in chum-infested waters after a time. This, coupled with the long-standing policy of not talking about these issues (to avoid promulgating scandal), created the biggest scandal in hundreds of years. I certainly hope they'd learned from their mistakes, but, honestly, I doubt it. Anyway, I hope that's enough on the derail.

Pond, I think you bring back a question that was asked in the original post in this thread: i've noticed that even here, the distinction is made between "leaders" and "clergy," or "corps" and "clergy," as though way ordination was valid. was it? An interesting thing that one should consider when thinking about TWI ordinations is this: according to the scriptural model (cf Acts 6, 14:22; 1 Ti 5:22), valid ordinations need to be performed by the apostles (or their successors and offshoots, who are validly ordained bishops). All twi ordinations were performed by vp or somebody who vp ordained. Was vp a bishop? Can he trace his ordination lineage back to an apostle? If the answer is no, then it would be questionable as to whether the ordination was scripturally valid or not to begin with. Please note: this is not to disparage anybody who received a TWI "ordination" one way or the other. Like most on this thread, I believe that a person should be evaluated on individual merit not on the existance or nonexistance of a title bestowed upon the individual, regardless of the validity of that title.

There is a film that may be coming to a theater near you (it's a small one, so it may not make it) called The War Tapes. Link to website: here. Apparently, this filmmaker outfitted several soldiers in a NH National Guard unit with digital video cameras then edited the results into this film. Looks like it could be interesting. There are some video clips from the film in the above website. The filmmaker states the following as her policy: TWT believes in empowering citizens to tell their own stories – and believes citizen journalism can make amazing film. We are completely committed to opening up mainstream media and getting more human voices in. If you’re asking whether TWT is pro- or anti- war, it’s neither. The soldiers with cameras have different beliefs about whether we should still be in Iraq. The filmmakers all respect those differences and this movie is not afraid to show them. You’ll see one soldier joining because of 9/11, and another saying its all about money and oil. This film is not an objective or partisan film – it’s not trying to answer, “is this the right war?” Instead, TWT is trying to answer: “what is war for the soldiers who live it?” Anyway, I thought that you all might be interested in seeing this, as it purports to capture the perspective of the war from a different angle than what other efforts had done.

Haven't bought a GS cookie since 1992. Don't plan to start back up again. They're not missed either.

So let me understand then, you're saying that about 2% of the TWI "clergy" were corrupt? And that 98% were good folks?

Sudo, Apparently neither Jen nor Angelina made the cut. I guess, according to FHM readers at least, Scarlett is the sexiest woman alive (this year). Whatd'ya think? Will she end up being a classic?

http://www.zhubert.com That's the best source I've seen to date for working the Bible in the Greek and Hebrew. I also am a big fan (as you know) of looking at the early Church fathers -- not so much to teach new doctrine, but to gain an understanding of what Christianity thought on a particular subject in the early centuries. Two good sites that I use frequently for that: 1. http://www.ccel.org 2. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers Another interesting site is the "Net Bible" -- which is a wiki-style collaborative translation being developed online: http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm Hope that helps...

Nice analogy, Bob (Vila)

You all, of course, understand that under the right circumstances, 2+2 can equal 0, right? When? If you are using binary addition with a two bit register. 0 1 0 0 1 0 ------ 0 0 <---- Note only two bits are stored in the register. The carry bit is an overflow and discarded. and of course with the same logic, 2+3 can equal 1... 0 1 0 0 1 1 ------ 0 1 <----- Note again, a two bit register. The carry bit is overflowed and discarded. Sorry my geek was showing.

Actually, Dooj, I don't see you being off-topic at all. Wasn't the topic initially something about "the unrighteous not inhereting......?" The argument put forward by twi and others of that ilk are unscriptural, imho. The reason I say this is because it removes all free will from man, which is a fundamental principle of the relationship between God and man. God gives us freedom of will, freedom to do the right thing or freedom to do the wrong thing. God gives one the freedom to walk away, including His own children. Oh, btw, the verse we have all learned so well, 1 Pe 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.", is sort of interesting: the word rendered "seed" in the English language versions is the word "spora" (Strongs 4701), which actually means "that which is sowed." This 1 Pe usage is the only usage of that word in the NT. The word normally rendered "seed" in the KJV is the word "sperma" (Strongs 4690), which means "seed (that from which a plant germinates)." I'm sure you can appreciate the difference in the two words. Subtle, but there. One other point: the phrase "by the word of God." "By" is the Greek word "dia" -- which means "through" In fact, the RSV and NASB both have a better translation of that second phrase: "through the living and enduring word of God." That, in fact, should be the emphasis: that a person is regenerated through the Word of God, which is incorruptible. The emphasis is on the Word of God being incorruptible, not about you having some incorruptible seed planted in you that will keep you born again even if you choose to walk away. If you take a look at the rest of the chapter, it makes a whole lot more sense: 1Pe 1:24 for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, 1Pe 1:25 but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you. You should be thinking about the parable of the sower right about now.... Sorry that it isn't all that well structured, but as you said, it's thinking out loud...

fwiw, the verse that is in contention with this is 1 cor 12:11 (iirc): the kjv for this reads: "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." rsv: "All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." nasb: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." It's been a long, long time so my recall on this may not be where it should be, but if IIRC, the vicster said something along the lines that the pronoun "he" (as in "he will") had to refer back to the previous noun (he said "every man"). Then iirc, he said if it wasn't that way, the entire Bible would fall apart, or something along those lines. Well, the expression "every man" is, in the greek, "ekastos." "Ekastos" is an adjective. (Strong's 1538) -- it means "each." Using the Vicster's rules of Greek construction, the "he" would have to refer back to "the Spirit" then, as "the Spirit" is the previous noun (otherwise the whole Bible would fall apart, or something like that). Oh, by the way, the word "he wills" is in fact only one word, as well... "boulomai" (Strong's 1014). It's written in the 3rd person singular, present tense, indicative mood. So if Vic's interpretation of "all nine all the time" refers to 1 Cor 12:11, he'd be best advised to go back and rework the scriptures a bit... At least, imho and ymmv.

Dooj, Think about the story of the prodigal son. The forgiving father didn't drag him back home kicking and screaming...he (the son) had to feel contrition and then return home. Something to consider...

4 years. Apparently she isn't "too pretty for jail"

Of course he would. He's only learned the ego-centric walk taught by TWI from the time he was a pup. Therefore, people who actually do as they were commanded, picking up the cross of Christ and walking with it...those peeps who lived their lives as if they believed God and walked like Christ were actually just operating devil spirits...dontcha know! People like St. Theresa of Calcutta, St. Maximillion Kolbe, and any martyrs just weren't walking with real believing.

And to continue on with the Galatians passage quoted earlier: Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another. Please note the tense in Gal 5:24. Note that it is rendered in the present perfect tense in the English. In the Greek it is in the aorist -- indicating a distinct event, looked at from the outside, that has happened in the past. Go ahead and discuss!!!

1Cr 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 1Cr 6:16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh." 1Cr 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 1Cr 6:18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. 1Cr 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 1Cr 6:20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. Continuing on so that we see the remainder of the context.

It might invite some wider participation than the normal folks.

WEST VIRGINIA (AP) People in West Virginia have been getting the short end of the stick for so long they hardly question their poor treatment any longer. The typical West Virginian is happy to just finish his 14 hour shift at the dilapidated coal mine, drive his 1978 flatbed pickup up the dirt road where his trailer is parked, shout something at his cousin/wife, eat some deep-fried dinner, and try to count his eleven barefoot children before falling asleep on the lazy boy over the noise of the Springer audience cheering, “Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry.... ” His ninth grade education allows him to brag that he “made it all the way to high school” and gives him hope that one day one of his kids will at least make it into WVU before flunking out in the first semester. Although only two of his children can read, they are smart enough to look at pictures. A couple of his boys have been watching the TV and couldn’t help but to notice two teachers who were recently arrested for molesting students. One was Debra Lafave – a teacher in Florida. The other was Toni Lynn Woods – a teacher in West Virginia. They boys looked carefully at the pictures of the two teachers. It didn’t take them long to decide which teacher they would rather be molested by. “Why can’t we get a chance to be molested by some teacher who looks like that Florida babe Debra? How come it’s always someone that looks like Aunt Sadie that makes the news in West Virginia?” Florida's Debra Lafave and West Virginia's Toni Lynn Woods --- YOU decide! It really isn’t fair that West Virginia students have to endure getting groped by someone like Toni Lynn Woods, while Florida students get treated to sex with Debra Lafave. What happened to ‘No Child Left Behind’? When will West Virginia finally get a break? Please note that this is a SATIRICAL article. Source: http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i7606