markomalley

Ron, thanks for a laugh! From the company's website (link provided by Ron): Can Neuticles be implanted in people? Absolutely not. While the material used for Neuticles is FDA approved, a second FDA approval is required by law for each area of the human body an implant is placed. No company, including Neuticles, has FDA approval for solid silicone or polypropylene testicular implants. Neuticles are perfectly safe for pets but cannot be used on people. see here

You have to turn HTML on (HTML On - Auto Linebreak mode) Then you use the IMG tag Then you type: <img src="http://www.url.com/filename.jpg"> img is the tag for "image" src is an attribute (means source) and you set the attribute equal to the URL of the picture Then preview the post to make sure that it works properly Then you "add reply" (for a good tutorial on HTML, you can go to the following site: HTML Code Tutorial

Try this...

Sounds sort of familiar. Have you checked into Eastern Christianity...Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean or the like? Their traditional liturgies are still celebrated in Aramaic and the spirituality you may find appealing. The other thing I'd check into is the spirituality of Saint Therese of Liseux or Saint Maria Faustina. You may find elements of what both advocated as very, very appealing.

St. Paul had a unique perspective on things. Possibly his role as a member of the Sanhedrin had something to do with it. His explanation, as you say, explaining the new covenant in terms of the old, is tremendously valuable as it shows how, in painful detail, Christ was the fulfilment of the old covenant. However, in the light of the new testament, many of the writings of the prophets become abundantly clear as to their meaning. That is why I personally scoff at ultra-dispensationalists (not in a mean way) and am so disappointed that I, as a former TWI member, was once one of them. As to the writings of the Church Fathers, have you read Irenaeus, Against Heresies, or Clement (Alexandria), Stromata? They repeat many of the Pauline themes you discussed.

Well, again, we must remember that 1 Corinthians was a letter written by the Apostle to the Church at Corinth. In that church, there were a tremendous amount of abuses both in how they conducted themselves and in the liturgy they celebrated. One thing that I see a lot of groups misunderstand is that not just 1 Cor 12 through 14 need to be read as a group to understand context, but that the context goes back to 1 Cor 10. TWI (and offshoots) don't ever seem to do that and so they miss the key point: that the believers should stay with the faith that was delivered to them by the apostles. An interesting document for you to consider is a document called "The Didache" -- it is, in all likelihood, the most ancient non-canoncial Christian document in existence. You can look at it along with a lot of information pertaining to it here. I can appreciate being a big fan of St. Paul. He was a very prolific and profound writer. But, again, I would submit that ALL of the apostles carried forth the message of Christ. And it is God who protects and nurtures His church...therefore, had St. Paul not been the author of so many writings that were later codified into the Canon of the New Testament, somebody else's writings would have. The key is the message of God's love story to man. And that message cannot fail one way or the other. IMHO

Welcome, Carl! Unfortunately, I have no idea what post you are talking about here. If you can put a hyperlink in to show me what post you're referring to, that would be helpful. I'm afraid that I couldn't agree with you, though, on "sandblasting" off all of scripture except for the Church Epistles. There is a HUGE amount of tremendous wisdom in ALL of God's revelation to man. Not just the Pauline writings and certainly not just his letters written to some of the particular churches. Again, without reading the post to which you are talking about, I'm not really able to respond to the rest of your comments. I am, however, looking forward to being able to do so.

Rick, Fair enough, I think it's fair to ask a definition of "real" proof when he asked the question, Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?. Does he want a blue dress? What constitutes "real proof"?

You know, that is a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad question to ask around here. Particularly for somebody who's been around gsc as long as you have.

Rascal, You and I were different then. First, family was not an issue at all, so that's off the table. However, as far as religious issues: I had given up on mainline churches as not having the answers to my questions for a couple of years prior to even being approached by TWI. So I was a dissatisfied customer prior to them offering the sale to me. As far as relationship issues: frankly, I had never met a group of people (individuals, yes. groups, no) that even came close to what I saw from twi people. (I now recognize it as being love-bombing, but at the time, thought it was genuine care and concern) I never thought that the shoe didn't fit ANYBODY. My sole (no pun intended) point was that the shoe she was setting on the table didn't fit EVERYBODY. You've read enough of my posts to know I'm not hardly a TWI/VPW/LCM apologist in any way, shape, or form. Despite that, reality is reality. Again, please note that I am not trying to say in any way, shape, or form that CW is wrong. I don't believe she is wrong. I know she experienced what she experienced. I know you experienced what you experienced. The fact that you were forced to have an abortion at those b*st*rds' hands (or risk expulsion from the group and have your world collapse on you) is unforgivable in my opinion. The pedophilia issues that some, including CW, were forced to tolerate is unforgivable in my opinion. The rapes that others on this board had to endure was unforgivable in my opinion. I am not doubting those experiences at all, as you already know. I am saying that not everybody went through all of this. Or any of this. Some people got in because it was an effective sales job. When it got weird (a highly subjective term), they got out. Doesn't mean they didn't have experiences. Doesn't mean they don't have something to learn. Doesn't even mean they weren't manipulated. Just not in the same way as some. Certainly doesn't mean that there aren't long-term effects to that manipulation...even if those effects are less obvious than those who feel compelled to string chairs 20 years after leaving. Peace. We are in "violent agreement"? I think that's the case.

I wasn't going to continue, but apparently you want to do so: See, the statement, by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up, I don't, once again, think is universally true, even among those of us who post here, much less those who just left and moved on with life... Yes, TWI manipulated us...all of us. But I think in many cases the manipulation was not so much to fill up a lack in their personal self-worth (i.e., didn't measure up) but to "help" people aspire to an ideal, perhaps, to develop a better knowledge of scripture to build a closer relationship with God to worship more in line with the first century church whatever other reasons are out there Those reasons are not contingent upon feeling like we didn't measure up. Frankly, the TWI I entered used more love-bombing and affirmation than ripping a person down. The times when there was ripping down it would, for the most part, be very, very subtle: you want to do the Word, don't you? don't settle for good when you can get best, etc. Please don't get me wrong. I understand that TWI developed into a horribly abusive organization in the 90s. That may be the norm in those days. But I just didn't see it from my perspective (I saw it start to go downhill beginning in 1987 or so and finally had enough in '89 after the loyalty letter). And I understand from you all that it turned into an absolute nightmare during the 90s. But I didn't see that. I was gone by that time. Yes, there was manipulation Yes, there were various castes Yes, there was idolatry But I didn't personally see the overt abuse that characterized the 90s. I wasn't there by that time. I will wholeheartedly agree with you 110% on that. We believed because we wanted to believe they had the answers. I see nothing wrong with wanting to find the answers. Scripturally, there are too many quotes for me to quote, throughout the Bible, where people are being encouraged to excel, spiritually. There are too many examples throughout Church history where people have done just that. Many examples of people lauded were those whose deeds were not at all respected by mankind but who were very beloved of God. A couple of easy examples are St. Therese of Liseux and Bl. Charles De Foucauld. But the intentional manipulation of people who are seeking those answers, whether as a matter of a positive, enhancing step or a matter of a medicinal, corrective step, is, no matter whether done through deception and ensnarement or coercion and abuse, unacceptable. imho

Sorry, but the statement I quoted from your original post struck me as very judgemental and denigrating. Since that wasn't your intent, obviously I must have not read it correctly...

I'd give people a little more credit than you did, CW. You said, The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick. I agree that a number of us got into TWI not as a matter of a lack in our lives, but rather as a purported "answer" to our questions. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw as disconnects between doctrine and practice, unscriptural/unsupported demands placed on us, and perceived hypocricy. We saw TWI in an idealistic fashion. I still remember a statement I made shortly after taking the foundational piffle class: 'The Way would never have been necessary had the mainstream churches been doing their jobs' -- I got some looks from people when I made that statement, but it's just as true over 20 years after the fact as it was when I made it. And when those of us who came into TWI saw that the reality of the situation didn't come close to the promise, we left. It may have been institution of bureaucracy in the late 70s, it may have been after LCM assumed the TWI presidency, it may have been after the reading of the POP, it may have been after the "Loyalty Letter," or it may have been after some other straw broke the camel's back, but we left. Remember, many of us left voluntarily. Not all of us were marked and avoided. Fortunately, some of the mainstream churches have figured out, at least in large part, what they were doing wrong that caused so many young people to leave. Unfortunately, not nearly enough of them have. So I'd give people a little break before making a broad-brush statement like you did in your original post. Some may deserve it. But many more don't.

For a good connection (which is more likely to be a tangental, fellow-traveller connection than anything else), the reader should probably refer to these threads, which have discussed the topic ad nauseum: The Thirteenth Tribe 1978 - The Current Psychological Hoax 1976 Corps Meetings VPW - A Patton Wannabe As for the subject matter expert on that topic, I think that Sunesis.is about the foremost expert on TWI's involvement with this movement.

So, in other words: and maybe even: Thanks for pointing out the Truth of the matter. Whew!

I knew that it was Bush's fault, somehow!

You mean this picture? Surely it wasn't this picture: or this picture: or this picture: 'cause the principle 'objective' support for the "four crucified" theory would have been blown out of the water. We had a fun discussion on this down in Doctrinal last January. You can get to the Misquoting Jesus thread by clicking here. Makes for a fun review even though it's down in the doctrine dungeon.

Actually, that post took prior restrained comments and pushed to (imho) the limit the level of vitriol felt toward the man. Right on target, I believe. But don't you think you should post the actual words of somebody rather than making accusations about what somebody said she said? Or is it easier just to make a commonly held, but unsupported (and inaccurate) statement?

Robin, I sympathize with what you're saying. And I, myself, have used the word 'caustic' when describing Ms. Coulter. Having said that, I took the time to scan several pages of her book and OCR'd them to another thread. Particularly the section that applies to the Jersey Girls. If you'd like to copy and paste some of her comments from that section (quoted verbatim) that you believe far exceed some of the DU comments posted above in this thread, I'm sure that people would enjoy reading those extracts. See, I just reviewed the section of her book that I scanned and OCR'd (basically the complete set of comments regarding the Jersey Girls). My review was, admittedly, cursory, but I don't see any comments from Ms. Coulter that expressed glee that these ladies' husbands died. Nor did I see in any place where she wanted to consign the Girls or their late husbands to the nether regions. Nor did I see in any place where she (unlike a fellow g-spotter) proposed that the Girls or their children be stripped of their earthly possessions and be placed in a homeless shelter. Maybe I didn't review it carefully enough. If you can paste the comments to which you refer, I'd be happy to re-evaluate. More Importantly though... What does this have to do with Ann Coulter anyway?

...As far as his family is concerned...I say take their assets and drop them off at the nearest homeless shelter... (note the elipses) Wow

Well, at the risk of sounding pedantic... We should keep in mind the depth of radicalism that is out there. Not that all democrats are that way... Having said that, there were a couple of rest-in-peace type of posts on that thread and a couple of posts on similar threads that called for moderation. Posts of either variety were immediately and thoroughly flamed as if they were chum being thrown into shark-infested water. Makes this site's thrashing of LCM supporters seem almost polite. Interesting reading from time to time, that site is...

Thanks for the news. Just for grins, I went over to Democratic Underground to see the reaction from the peanut gallery. Such jubilation! Here's a partial sample: Quick, get a WOODEN STAKE and a Hammer LOL!!!! Actually, it's quite fitting. Surprising that someone that arrogant can die. 102. I don't think he's actually dead I'm not buying it. Its too easy. Bush is probably putting his buddy boy up in some island resort for the rest of his life. I want to see a body! 11. Not fair... not fair... But if there's eternal justice, he should be watching and feeling now how his actions caused so much pain to a lot of people. He wasn't hunting with Dick Cheney, was he? 8. well that'll save bush the trouble of pardoning him i guess if there's an afterlife, maybe he'll get what he deserves anyway 17. Good riddance to bad rubbish. 56. "[D]isapprove"?? HE RUINED PEOPLE'S LIVES! He needed to be CONDEMNED, RUINED, DESTROYED. Seems the Universe agreed. 67. Guess Ken got his "pardon" from Bush... just not in the way... he expected. So much for his possible canary act! He can join that other Enron guy who committed "suicide" a few years back. How convenient for Bu....Co. These pricks never get the justice they really deserve. 71. His estate will most certainly transfer back the people of California My refund/restitution check will arrive soon, right? We are going to get our money back aren't we? Lay's death really saddens me. I wanted his passing to be much more lengthy, agonizing and impoverished. 75. Is this the room you go to .... on a corpse? AH...there's the body...AHHHHH!! That morning coffee... You can just feel a little less evil in the world today? Thank you, Santa!! 134. An eternity burning in Hell would be too good for this guy, for what he and his buddies did to the investors in Enron. And the employees. And for engineering the California energy crisis in cahoots with the BFEE. I would have preferred a slow, lingering, painful demise in prison. 181. Well you can say this for him. He ruined a lot of lives before he died. Hope his family's proud. From this thread Can you feel the love yet?

Interesting thing about 'Babylon Mystery Religion.' Ralph Woodrow, the author of that book, has utterly repudiated it in recent years. He recognized that its basis, The Two Babylons was flawed. You can see a link to Mr. Woodrow's website here.

Cynic, The reporter is probably talking about the PCUSA, PCA, and OPC...if I was to guess.

I do feel sorry for the more conservative/ orthodox members of these churches. Like their denominations have left them behind.