WhiteDove

They used to sell some of Charles Welch's books.

Stick around TOTW once you experiance the pie uzi you'll get it!!!!! LOL

You know everything was working just fine until I read this thread. This weekend the transmission on the washer went out of course the guy had to say I've never seen one do that, thats only four years old. Today the drain seems to be running slow. Guess I am going shopping for a new washer today. Geee Hopefull thanks for sharing...... :blink: :( Here is a little song to sing as we fork over the dollars to fix everything. Everything is Broken- Bob Dylan Broken lines, broken strings, Broken threads, broken springs, Broken idols, broken heads, People sleeping in broken beds. Ain't no use jiving Ain't no use joking Everything is broken. Broken bottles, broken plates, Broken switches, broken gates, Broken dishes, broken parts, Streets are filled with broken hearts. Broken words never meant to be spoken, Everything is broken. Bridge: Seem like every time you stop and turn around Something else just hit the ground Broken cutters, broken saws, Broken buckles, broken laws, Broken bodies, broken bones, Broken voices on broken phones. Take a deep breath, feel like you're chokin', Everything is broken. Bridge: Every time you leave and go off someplace Things fall to pieces in my face Broken hands on broken ploughs, Broken treaties, broken vows, Broken pipes, broken tools, People bending broken rules. Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking, Everything is broken. Copyright © 1989 Special Rider Music

Just a light dusting of snow here mostly gone already cold today but tomorrow back in the 50s

A little birdie( hey I'm a little birdie) told me that some little piggie has repaired her computer and is heading this way. A new cone for you Raf The Cone of Psalmie is gathering up wind or pies.

Mattel said in February 2004 that Barbie and Ken had split after 43 years because they wanted to spend some time apart. Ken, who appears to have spent time in the gym and at the stylist, Ha assuming that they were at least 16 when they met that would make Ken 59. He looks pretty good for his age. I 'd say that he has been to more than the gym can you say nip and tuck? HAHAHA I guess now you can say he really is made of plastic. I guess Amanda did not work out well for him after all.

Exactly Socks I could not agree more or said it better....... I don't get it either by the way

I don't. I don't remember saying that it was not literal. I think I said Another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have. Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands) Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up. None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad. Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all.

Assuming that Raising of hands is literal and not figurative Yes there are records in the Old Testament that document such actions. There are none however to support the fact that God commanded it . To assume just because people do something that it is commanded or approved is a leap -a big one that has no scriptural support. As I said it is extraneous, accomplishes nothing in changing the results of a prayer, That does not make it wrong it makes it pointless, much the same as sticking your thumb in your ear and wiggling your fingers would be . Each to their own but I ask again is there a point to this? First The Way was wrong in their assumption! If you followed the same path you would be wrong also. A wrong belief on their part does not prove another right it just makes two wrong ones. Secondly there is a reason raising of hands is not recanted in the New Testament -that being that it was never commanded ,mandated, suggested in the Old by God. One would not recant something he did not say to begin with. Which means there is nothing to recant even if one wanted to.

Just for the record I talk to Dean periodically as we carry his music in the bookstore. I'd have to say Dean is his "own man so to speak". He see his music as a ministry and I think he does it well. Before he would come anywhere he would spend time in consideration and discussion if it was the right thing to do. This I know from personal experience. I also know that if he felt it was the thing he should do he would do it regardless if anyone would or could pay him to do so. He has no desire to be a performer doing a show, he sees his music as a chance to minister to God's people. I suppose If you think that happens or not is a matter of opinion, but I have to say I appreciate his efforts to do what he does best. I think it shows through in the quality of his music.

The Will of God is the Word of God. Hmmm Hills I don't get it? :blink:

Bliss I think Ex-10 covered it pretty well it would depend on the type of meeting you wanted to have . I would expect noise at a sports event or concert by nature they just are loud. I would not expect quiet repose at such a event. At a board meeting I would expect orderly discussion the same in a court of law. I can only speak for myself but to me a church meeting is a place to get away from the noise of everyday life a time of prayer and reflection. A time to commune with my heavenly Father to listen to his Words. I think there is much to be said to the old saying "The Greatest Cargo's of life come in over quiet seas." Put another way Be Still and know that I am God! I find that hard to do that when people are waving about and shouting. Maybe I could just close my eyes and block it out if I thought that there was some productive purpose for it but as I said ,so far I see none. So again I still am faced with the same question why do something extraneous that has no scriptural mandate? What's the point?

Ex maybe Socks still has an old "We're on God's Team outfit you could cheer in"........ Yeah Praise and Worship Cheerleaders...... :blink:

Ex Socks beat me to the draw here but I agree. As I said I would be hard pressed to link the verse in Corinthians to a meeting format which is why I did not. As Best as I can see verse 40 seems to be a summery statement of as socks said the previous chapter which deals with manifestations/spiritual things. An echo of verse 26 Let all things be done to edifying. I suppose to some small extent due to the fact that one may have manifestations during a church meeting it has some bearing on how things are done. But as I said I would be hard pressed to wrench it from it's context and try to connect it to a meeting plan. I don't in fact know of any verse that speaks to how to format a service. That said I would think that the general things that apply to a meeting in the secular realm would be useful to some degree. Things like not speaking when someone else is ,not drawing away from the focus of the meeting ect. At any rate I can only speak for myself and as I said I find it disrupting, and extraneous. Maybe I am too old to be expending energy doing things that have no purpose or effect. Going back to your songbook analogy if I was singing I would hold a songbook but I would not hold one if I were not singing it would have no purpose.

Oh T the feeling is mutual....... Well to start with holding a songbook has a purpose, keeping it open so you can see the words. Waving your hands however has none other than to distract the person next to you. It neither alters the prayer or song or accomplishes any purpose. By the way I never close my eyes when hands are flying it is a good way to get hit When hands are moving I look like like this :blink: When I close my eyes I look like this If you reread my post i don't think I made a connection between the two actually . I did mention that I found a meeting to be not in order. Other than that I found the practice to be extraneous. Sorry but from what I have seen it just does not appear most times to be some inspired action but as I said a conditioned response. And in some cases nothing more than the Pharisees did to be seen as spiritual. Just me but I don't see any mention of Jesus waving hands or Peter or Paul when they prayed. So I have to ask myself why should I ? As I already posted it does nothing in regard to the prayer one way or the other. So what is the point? I would not stick my foot in the air either just because I can. Like I said once it starts where does it stop who decides what to do and not. What if everyone decided to do something that gave them an emotional high? Why it would be a circus!! which was what I saw in my opinion and I was not the only one either. It's pretty hard to focus on what is being prayed for also with several people chattering in your ear. Perhaps it's just a respectful thing to do like in a classroom or a meeting when someone is speaking normally the others listen. That said it’s a free country anyone can do as they please in certain parameters I suppose. People can wave hands ,curl up in a fetal ball, chant, pop beads, or pick their nose in the spirit just don't tell me it's biblical. I

Your choice Belle but may I point out it has nothin to do with the Way. As socks well noted it is a Biblical based idea not a Way black and white thinking issue!

Socks For sure each church will differ in their services. I imagine most from a Way background will tend toward the in order meetings. Somehow I just can't picture Vince doing the preacher strut. LOL He could however use you in their praise band. As Lennon said once the sound they make is muzak to my ears. My take once you open up that can of worms then they all want out. I would not want the job of deciding who you allow and who you !@** off. In the case of the meeting I mentioned I had gone at considerable expense expecting a uplifting time I left early saddened by the event. I knew when the person in a ball on the floor was the speaker I was in trouble. Honestly I did not know whether to laugh or cry. For a moment the part in the class flashed before me but I decide not to walk down the isle and give him a kick. Probably a wise choice! It was sad though at least for me to see someone that was once someone that earned my respect in that state. I missed the afternoon halftime show as I told the presenter that my heart just could not take it. So we came in late which I found to be as annoying and not a good solution either. Anyway for me I find it to be quite distracting particularly in a teaching.

Where to even start with this? The idea of lifting up hands seems to have picked up a lot of popularity in the last few years among Christian groups many who have not embraced it prior. Notably it seems that those who have embraced the Praise and Worship Songs as in the TV infomercials have also likewise imitated the actions they see there. Like a Pavlov Dog at the sound of the first few notes of Shine Jesus Shine the hands start moving like a referee making a holding call on the 40 yard line. Many people who for years had a fulfilled prayer life now seem to think that there is more to be done. Perhaps many think God is deaf and that He needs some sign language to hear them or maybe that like a motorist stranded in a blizzard we need to wave him down to get his attention. Even ExWay groups like V. Finnegan's C.B.C. and Faithful Word Ministries have joined in the fad. Some say it brings them closer to God but I thought in Ephesians it says that we already are. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:18,19 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. I would submit to you that if one does not feel close to God that it is not He that is lacking, perhaps it is you that moved away I don't know how you can get any closer than a habitation to God. Well this new found phenomena raises a ton of questions. WHY? - Why would you want to raise your hands during music or prayer? Where?-Where is the Scriptural proof that we are given license to do this ? What ? - What are Holy Hands? Do we have them? When ? - If we have them when do we use them when we sing? Pray? teach? Read the Bible? What ? - What does the Bible say about the subject in the Old and New Testaments? As many have pointed out there are several references to lifting up hands in the Old Testament. Notably though they are limited to association with prayer. A specific physical posture has never been a requirement for acceptable prayer. Prayer can be made standing (1 Sam. 1:26), or kneeling (1 Kgs. 8:54). Sometimes petitions were offered from a prostrate position (1 Kgs. 18:42; Mk. 14:35). One might spread out his hands in prayer (1 Kgs. 8:22; Isa. 1:15), or lift them up (Job. 11:13-14; Psa. 63:4). But neither the place (public or private), nor posture, was a crucial element of the prayer. As Mark pointed out the lifting up of the hands as a gesture in prayer, however, has been a common, cultural format in many societies of the past, both pagan, Jewish, and Christian. But notable again is the fact that nowhere in scripture is this requested ,asked for, or mandated by God. The "lifting up of holy hands is more than likely a carried over expression from the Old Testament. These passages of scripture illustrate the fact that in some cases the Hebrews held up their hands when praying. But as we have already seen such is not always the case as there were other postures of prayer also. This leads to the conclusion obviously that a particular posture in prayer was not a binding pattern nor mandated. Holy Hands just what are they? Literally speaking there is no such thing as "holy hands" This as also noted is a figure of speech synecdoche (the part put for a whole) A quick look at Proverbs 6 will reveal where many body parts are used to metaphorically illustrate evil (a lying tongue, murderous hands, wicked heart, mischievous feet ect...) As in these verses where a part is put for the whole so it is in Timothy. This leads us to the one and only one verse in the New Testament on the subject of lifting hands. I Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. Overlooking this figure of speech results in a problem in understanding of this verse. Also I would note that in this same chapter are some other verses that seem to be overlooked if one was taking this literally it's interesting what we pick and choose to use and throw away. . In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Timothy is a leadership or pastoral epistle mainly to men serving in the church probably written in 67 AD. To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church. Notably again they were simple, of an ethical nature not a hierarchical one. The point of this verse in Timothy is this. Those who lead in public worship must be holy men leading the church in the very highest spiritual quality. As also noted the emphasis is on the holy part. In review we see that holding up of hands was one of many postures of prayer used by the Hebrews. Although used it was not requested or mandated by God anywhere in scripture. Thus we have no scriptural urgency to do so. That said men have done things to work out their own salvation for centuries. Man often feels he needs to help God out but then that is the point of Romans isn't it we were dead without hope certainly in no position to offer any form of help and yet we still try to do it our way at times. We see that holy hands in I Timothy the one scripture in the New Testament on this subject is a figure of speech addressed mainly to those leaders or pastor's leading a church. So is there anything intrinsically wrong with this practice? I'd say perhaps not but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. The next question that begs to be asked is where does it stop? ..... and who makes these decisions in orderly worship? I attended a meeting of ExWays that honestly I found to be very out of order. While one was praying others were waving hands in various manners, across from me was someone who I would guess was trying to set some sort of record for the number of times he could say Thank You Jesus in one prayer session. Back at the rear of the room was someone on the floor curled up in a ball mumbling to themselves. It was pathetic. Then add to the mix the Joyce Meyer crowd laughing in the spirit, a few people slapping their foreheads and chanting and what if we want to toss hymnals in the air too? So who decides? And where does it end? Hell let's toss in a few rattlers too! What once started out as maybe an inspired action by some has now been religionized into a full three ring circus set to start on musical que. It's extraneous at best , it serves no purpose in bringing us any closer with God nor does it alter the prayer outcome one way or the other. So I still wonder what is the point?

They are still there I believe. I think I have a phone # around http://www.believerlinks.org/blinknv.htm - email

Sadly Raf I think you are right! My guess this one will end up in the Soap Opera section.

HAHAHA Hap I wonder if anyone has noticed that in 5 days this thread has 1/3 of the views that the "THE" thread has had in 4 1/2 years.

Yeah Raf that is the best I have got, reading things for what is written, for what they are, and responding in kindness. I'll make no apologies for that. Dispelled? Not really, Your right I would expect them in a discussion post not in a simple announcement aimed at the few that might have been interested in such a item. Was I shocked ? not at all, but it's misplaced just like a rude word in a memorial thread or in your case Raf in a thread about a success that you accomplished in life. In many ways it has transcended the poster itself it's not about the item but about the person behind it. Was it an overreaction maybe, I would not have responded that way either. That aside it became obvious that what was meant to be a simple kindness had now become a source of hurt for someone ,right or wrong it was still the issue. I suppose I just don't see the point in giving someone grief for no purpose other than being "the funnyman of the moment" What was to be gained from pushing the issue? Were a few laughs worth the cost in human tears and hurt? SHOCKED? NO! JUST DISAPPOINTED........ I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED BETTER.......

You are correct Garth there are not any. As I said Since there are not any they did not figure it out I guess.

Here was another announcement http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...58&hl=promotion It would have been just as wrong for me to rant about newspapers and how I hate them and have no use for them blah blah blah...... It would have been thoughtlesss unkind and in bad taste. Yet yes I had the right it's in the open form but I choose to be kind and respectful. Despite the fact that I have no use for newspapers I am glad you are doing well and having sucess. The same consideration could have been shown to WG for her announcement.. I'd Say if I had posted something along those lines I would have never heard the end of it either and I would have deserved it. I guess some people can figure out when to be kind and some need a heading to tell them ........ Then again if my life were destroyed by a gold frame maybe I would think differently Naw maybe not!